NYKeys Posted July 4, 2017 Report Share Posted July 4, 2017 What's the consensus on this? Is it a security risk? Would I be better off fitting euro doubles for the security benefit? Concerns a set of double french doors at the back of my own house. Thumb turns would be so much more convenient, not to mention safer, but if it puts us at increased risk of a break in I'm not sure it's a good idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Muppet Posted July 4, 2017 Report Share Posted July 4, 2017 As long as you get a decent quality lock then your security won't be affected, your safety and convenience will be increased though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitySafe Posted July 4, 2017 Report Share Posted July 4, 2017 If you are worried about safety, have a look at 'Push to Turn' thumb turns - https://uapcorporate.com/product/kinetica-push-2-turn-thumb-turn-3-star-kitemarked-euro-cylinder/.To gain access, burglars usually try to put tools through the letterbox in order to turn the thumb turn. With these ones, the user has to push in the thumb turn first before it will engage, making it ALOT harder to open the thumb turn from the outside, as even if you manage to get straps on it it will just spin. Alternatively you can get a letterbox shroud and a an thumb turn extension - https://uapcorporate.com/product/uap-hidden-fix-letterplate-restrictor-shrouds-and-extensions/. This again stops people being able to get straps etc around the thumb turn and open it that way. kobblers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYKeys Posted July 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2017 Interesting! Thanks for that City Safe. It's on french doors so there is no letterbox. I was worried about someone smashing the glass. kobblers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitySafe Posted July 4, 2017 Report Share Posted July 4, 2017 No problem. To be honest if they are going to smash the glass, they will more than likely just go through the hole where the glass is instead of bothering to try and open the cylinder from there. kobblers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkD Posted July 4, 2017 Report Share Posted July 4, 2017 Check with your insurance company that they don't require them key operated on the inside. kobblers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lock Stock Posted July 7, 2017 Report Share Posted July 7, 2017 No problem. To be honest if they are going to smash the glass, they will more than likely just go through the hole where the glass is instead of bothering to try and open the cylinder from there. As long as you get a decent quality lock then your security won't be affected, your safety and convenience will be increased though. If you are worried about safety, have a look at 'Push to Turn' thumb turns - https://uapcorporate.com/product/kinetica-push-2-turn-thumb-turn-3-star-kitemarked-euro-cylinder/. That is shocking advice, you can't use t/turns on french door sets. The only application will be HMO property's You also can't master key a BSI product and still keep the raiting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Muppet Posted July 7, 2017 Report Share Posted July 7, 2017 Why can't you use a thumb turn on French doors? (Genuine question) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkD Posted July 7, 2017 Report Share Posted July 7, 2017 You can do whatever you like in your own house and if a customer was to insist on thumb turns then I would happily fit them and just note it on the invoice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitySafe Posted July 7, 2017 Report Share Posted July 7, 2017 That is shocking advice, you can't use t/turns on french door sets. The only application will be HMO property's You also can't master key a BSI product and still keep the raiting. It is untrue about master keying a BSI and losing the rating... As long as you are registered with BSI you can key alike and mastersuite the cylinders and the rating is still kept. We have a lot of locksmiths who are BSI registered and are licenced to mastersuite and key alike our cylinders to retain the rating. kobblers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Davis Posted July 7, 2017 Report Share Posted July 7, 2017 I wouldnt ever fit a T/T cylinder to an external door that is glazed or has a letter box for obvious reasons, its just common sense kobblers and Lock Stock 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamparker Posted July 7, 2017 Report Share Posted July 7, 2017 Got thumbturns on every door in my house all keyed alike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Friend Posted July 7, 2017 Report Share Posted July 7, 2017 yep me too if there is a fire I dont want my family trying to remember where they left the keys -got an alarm we set when out or in bed and 2 x 4 legged mobile wardens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keySolutions Posted July 7, 2017 Report Share Posted July 7, 2017 SKG rated thumbturn cilinders lose their rating when mounted in a glazed door , unless safety glass is used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lock Stock Posted July 8, 2017 Report Share Posted July 8, 2017 It is untrue about master keying a BSI and losing the rating... As long as you are registered with BSI you can key alike and mastersuite the cylinders and the rating is still kept. We have a lot of locksmiths who are BSI registered and are licenced to mastersuite and key alike our cylinders to retain the rating. It's not untrue, You might want to look at the regulation, then understand master keying and it affects and compromise to security. If you've sold master keyed products to customers as BSI products then I'm not sure you should be approved to pin them. If I'm not correct can you explain when using just 2 of the chambers for master keying. How you are going to get the other 1000+ differs needed for BSI? This example is of a very small suite without common entrance cylinder, lets hope you haven't a big suite or entrance cylinder as you only have 6 chambers to use. Unless I'm wrong there too. Not trying to be funny but you shouldn't be trying sell stuff when you don't understand it, then when one corrects you tell them there wrong. So you don't understand mastering what about BS3621/8621 reg or TS007? Because I would not be confident after this. If you leave it up. You can all put as many thumb turn cylinders on the doors you want but you might want to read the terms and condition to your insurance. IE - what applies to what types of doors. You insurance company don't care about you ease of access. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamparker Posted July 8, 2017 Report Share Posted July 8, 2017 If you have more than 6 keyed alike then i am sure the same rules apply and they are no longer classed as B.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisorros Posted July 8, 2017 Report Share Posted July 8, 2017 If you have more than 6 keyed alike then i am sure the same rules apply and they are no longer classed as B.S. Master keyed & keyed alike are two different things. In short keyed alike cylinders are pinned to the same key but only one key combination will open each lock still keeping within the 1000+ differs needed for BSI. A master keyed cylinder is design to have multi able key combination that can pass that will lower the differs needed for BSI. Also did you key them alike or was it done by the manufacturer/supplier? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Friend Posted July 8, 2017 Report Share Posted July 8, 2017 Excuse me insurers do not give a toss about what you fit else there would be cases of failing to pay. Almost to a man they say see the MLA guidleines here http://www.locksmiths.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/MLA-Minimum-Security-Requirements-Jan-2017.pdf which has provision for keyless exit. Citysafe was correct the MLA held classes for locksmiths under BS to repin cylinders and they were certificated to do so the requirement is 1000 differs most 6 pins can far exceed that 10 cylinders keyed alike is still one cylinder differ years and years ago ( when I was MLA chairman) I asked the ABI to implement a survey of houses to get a better premium deal - they said not on your nelly not until all insurers agree and remember not all are ABI members Have you heard of a single case of not being paid out because you had a woolworths cylinder? NO! becuase the first company to do so will loose all the domestic insurance policies to another who will. So your premiums reflect that. If all houses complied with the MLA minimum standard - remember MINIMUM premiums could come down, they never will It is a risk based business hence maps of risk areas. _ I am pretty sure the 6 or more was dropped anyway and it makes no numbers no the implication being none is the number. BUT it is a long time since I cared enough to read them. I try to give a shit but can't kobblers, Dave the locksmith and CitySafe 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamparker Posted July 8, 2017 Report Share Posted July 8, 2017 I have had a few customers that we have fitted Ultion cylinders on there property and told them to let the insurance company be aware that this has been done and a few have had there premiums lowered as a result of fitting 3 star kite marked cylinders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brightonkeys Posted July 8, 2017 Report Share Posted July 8, 2017 I have had a few customers that we have fitted Ultion cylinders on there property and told them to let the insurance company be aware that this has been done and a few have had there premiums lowered as a result of fitting 3 star kite marked cylinders. Graham - just asking you as it's the weekend - is it possible for Brisant to make up Ultion cylinders in any size? Have some IFAM X5 locks on a garden gate that will need a slightly unusual size? I can phone them on Monday if you're busy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamparker Posted July 9, 2017 Report Share Posted July 9, 2017 They can make up a lot of sizes I also have an X5 on my shed and i needed a 75/30 key and turn and they could only make that on a Brisant E section. I think they can go to 65mm max each side but not sure. Give them a ring. I do have an Abus 300/35 key and turn at work somewhere I was given to show that they can make any size even a one off if required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lock Stock Posted July 9, 2017 Report Share Posted July 9, 2017 Mick you missing the point and your wrong I'm afraid. The MLA can not train people to re-pin under BSI and keep the rating. They have spent a lot of time trying to press this, and still can't. It's all to do with the cylinder being tapered with out side of an approved facility. You can not just do a pinning course and become a approved facility. This was one of the big things with Sold Secure Dimond SS312, lock smiths not being able to service locks. hence why you can under dimond re-pin a cylinder. But Not master key it though, which was what I was talking about. So back to the point at the beginning you only have a 6 pin cylinder with between 7-10 heights. Use 2 or 3 chambers how are you going to get the differs required. If you a 7 height keys your going to have enough differs left. If 8-10 heights then you maximum adjacent cut issues but again not leaving enough differs. I am aware of locks being able to be keyed alike but there are limits to how can be the same. If you checked the link City Safe sent on the post, it clearly states a 3 star and it being able to master keyed. Doesn't state you loose your rating. In fact they clam it still is and have sold it to many customers. I am also aware of 3621 and 8621 as already mentioned. But just to clarify you would only use 8621 when complying with fire reg on single exit property's or HMO's . So a house with with French won't apply it this. Hence my comments about bad advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brightonkeys Posted July 9, 2017 Report Share Posted July 9, 2017 That is shocking advice, you can't use t/turns on french door sets. When you say can't - do you mean should not? I am presuming you are referring to how easy it would be for a burglar to break the glass and reach his hand inside? kobblers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
key cabin Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 Up here in Derbyshire all properties have to have at least one thumb turn lock as a fire regulation, if there was a fire in the middle of the night panic disrupts your thought process and you may not remember where you put your keys, however this is eradicated if you have a thumb turn, one turn and you are out!!!! In my opinion (and thats all it is) all properties country wide should have at least one thumb turn on the property. kobblers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYKeys Posted July 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 Up here in Derbyshire all properties have to have at least one thumb turn lock as a fire regulation, if there was a fire in the middle of the night panic disrupts your thought process and you may not remember where you put your keys, however this is eradicated if you have a thumb turn, one turn and you are out!!!! In my opinion (and thats all it is) all properties country wide should have at least one thumb turn on the property. Wow - just out of interest, - how is this fire regulation requirement information disseminated? Will everyone in Derbshire know? What are the penalties for non-compliance and are they ever enforced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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