Zed Bull

[Guest chalky111]

Chalky you seem to be missing the point of what a Chinese copy is! It is not an alternative lower priced product that has been developed by a different company with years of research, design and development. With your machine you get Software that is 5 years out of date and says "advanced diagnostics" on the screen, you get a photocopy of the AD manual, you get a low cost version of all the hardware. This is not an alternative product, this is a fraudulent copy of someones design, intellectual property and patented product.

I am amazed that you are trying to hold it up as a credible product, it is a copy, nothing more, nothing less.

 

What you need to remember is that our little friend in china is not developing software for you, in fact he probably has no idea what you use an AD100Pro for, they don,t have our european vehicles to work on or any idea of what needs to happen, they see an opportunity to crack a software security and blatantly copy it, their not trying to hide the fact that it is a copy, they rely on the weak nature of the human race to buy stolen and copied products

 

you quote crypto work, as some kind of equivalent, but this software that the guys in turkey developed themselves, it is not a copy. If a Chinese copy of crypto work was available for a tenner would you be waving the flag for that as well? Cryptowork was a very good piece of software, they sold loads ( we sold it too) but in only 6 months the product is dead, the AD products have bypassed the Ford coded so no codes are required. If the guys from crypto work made enough money in that short time to cover their costs and put some money in their pocket, good on them.

 

I am all for competition, new products, lower cost products, new ideas, bring it on that's what makes my business run, but supporting copy products is not a soap box to stand on!

 

 

No, I think you are missing MY point. I fully understand yours.

 

"It is not an alternative lower priced product that has been developed by a different company with years of research"?

I never said it had been developed by them, not once? I know it is a copy, and I fully understand what the score is with it.

 

"I am amazed that you are trying to hold it up as a credible product"

Again, nope. I am not holding it up as credible, or waving any flags for it. I know it is a copy, and I know how they have stolen it.

 

Crypto work is a good case. If there was a copy, then i wouldn't have the Chinese copy, because Crypto work is excellent value for money, so it makes sense to buy the original. They have taken steps to stop it being copied, and that still doesn't make it an extortionate price. That is my whole point. AD is just too expensive, and that is what drives people to buy copies. The Chinese are not trying to hide the fact that it is a copy because they know how people work. If someone can save over 10 grand, then I'm sorry, the majority of people will do that when starting off in business. The "weak nature of the human race to buy stolen and copied products" is evident in all industries, so you cannot use that as a moral defence. Look at Euro Parts? they make copy car parts, and people buy them purely because they don't see the point in paying more than 3 times more for a genuine ford engine mount, or suspension bush. It is again big companies ripping off the little guy.

 

The sad fact is, there are copies out there, and the reason people buy them is price, nothing else. I don't 'wave a flag' for them, I simply use it for the same reason I buy shock absorbers for my car from Euro Parts and not from Ford. Its a price thing, and that is it. And whatever you say, it does the job, it works, and it makes me a good living.

 

There is a simple rule in life.. if you have to try and justify the price of a product to the buyer, then that price is too high.

[Mark Davis]

Is it correct that the chinese copy can do everthing that an MPV can ?, i was under the impression that they were copied a long time ago?

[grahamparker]

Bet you are a major downloader of cds and movies from the net as well ?????

[Lee]

There is a simple rule in life.. if you have to try and justify the price of a product to the buyer, then that price is too high.

I don't think Advanced Diagnostics have to justify the price of the product, they offer two alternatives the entry level mvp pro & the mainstream AD100 pro. Buying the entry level MVP Pro, I actually thought how little investment it took to get involved compared to other things I've started doing over the years.

 

Rule two for the simple life:- You only get what you pay for

Rule three for the simple life:- Best is cheapest at any price.

 

Lee

[Guest chalky111]

Bet you are a major downloader of cds and movies from the net as well ?????

 

 

lol, I like that one

 

I use itunes, and I use it a lot, I am a DJ so I have to show that I am paying for my music in my books.

 

films I'm not a downloader of, but everyone has watched a copy film at some point. If it was £100 to visit the cinema, a lot more people would watch pirate copies. That is my point.

 

Lee, rule two is a good one

[golfmad]

Just a thought, wonder how many people after reading the previous posts went on the net to look at copy machines

[rapidlocks]

You are very lucky indeed that your experience of the T300 from china is so positive as ive read on many forums adverse experiences of buying these , some with just american software so of little use in uk, some that just cant do some makes at all , some that pay and nothing turns up etc etc etc , so although your experience sounds positive , many many more are not so lucky.

 

I can understand fully your thinking as if 5000% cheaper it makes far more sense on paper , but reality is somewhat different on the whole, you critisise AD prices being a rip off as 5000% dearer than the chinese copies, does this mean that your own prices that you charge your customers are hugely cheaper than your competitors with ad equipment ? if so great , but you may be surprised how many do not pass this huge saving on to their customers , surely making them as much of a rip off ? as many trading can always justify their charges to themselves but rarely the charges of their suppliers, odd that one.

 

Ad prices may be dear , maybe even dearer than they need to be , other than maybe Robin , most of us couldnt answer this , as we are not privvy to the costs and development costs with these products or how prices were decided upon, but AD are in business to make a living and pay their staff and recover all of their costs in development , so its only fair to expect them to turn a fair profit for their business, or why bother at all, maybe though AD prices would not be as high at present if more bought their equipment over the copies , if every one in the world who has bought a copy machine had bought ad instead , maybe prices would be far better.

it is also testament to ad products and quality that so many choose their products to copy over any other.

 

The main point is of course if everyone followed your lead on this , and only bought chinese copies , the result would indeed be nothing else to copy. Lets face it most of the worthwhile software for auto diagnostic keys comes out of advanced diagnostics, a few turkish developers and a few eastern european developers , if these can no longer make their living from development , due to not selling their kits and recovering their costs, they stop developing, if this is the case the chinese have nothing left to copy and the industry grinds to a halt and no one has a business in this sector.

 

i know loads who set up with chinese machines, but nearly all have converted to an AD100 pro or an MVP pro eventually due to coverage and quality and yes support , but mainly for a unit that has the best coverage and future for their business, no matter how good any of us are , we all need help at some point , from the very best to the very worst of us, and drunken duncan as he is known around the world is one of the best support resources auto lockies have and is worth his weight in gold ( robin dont tell him this though ).

 

robin has corrected your misconception on the tokens not being used on the 12k system, but look for a moment at the MVP pro at £1695 , tokens are as little as £7.50 each , you have full coverage and all future software at no extra cost , long term this makes far more business sense to anyone , as with the new security and system it is already years ahead of copy machines and this gap gets wider every single year.

Just look at the Pro unit coverage and compare this to your T300 coverage on models and years covered and on pin code extraction etc , you will then see exactly how old your software is and how far behind your competitors at present, and with no realistic hope of china copying this new software, then future updated machines from china are not going to be possible, so you may well have to invest in ad products at some point, and at this time lets hope they are not even dearer to compensate for the copies.

 

as to this forum just being full of shoe repairers and key cutters and not auto lockies, i would have to disagree with this , tel200 , derrick , ricky c , peter southern and many more are accomplished and renouned auto locksmiths, some of the best in the industry, so way off the mark with this comment.

 

As for the rights and wrongs , i dont think you will agree with the points raised by members here , and nor they with you and your points, morally using just copies is wrong , and is detrimental long term for you and your business , for the trade and the companies involved, however , you feel for your business its right , thats your opinion and your right to that opinion, but as just an opinion does not make it right.

 

at the end of the day . what you think and what we think and what the manufacturers and distributors think is immaterial as you will still make up your own mind and do what you want, so a pointless discussion really , but facts are of course, your machine is outdated and always will be and with no prospect for future updates , but if your happy with this then so be it. but to those that have always used original or those that have realised and converted to originals, it may just be the knock off nigels buying copy kit that keeps prices high on original kit.

 

Is tel really Ginger ?

[Guest chalky111]

good post, you make the best case out of anyone here.

 

1700 quid is dear, but its justifiable. But I still fail to see how they are able to charge every time the locksmith does a job? I cannot see how this is fair, its a form of tax almost.

 

Well, when my copy eventually packs in or gets so far behind that it is unusable, I'll look at different options. but being held to ransom every time you use something you have purchased is unheard of with any other product.

[Gray]

Good post rapidlocks. =D> =D> =D> Tel is a bit Ginger lol. but one of the most informed guys on here, and an asset to us all. Chalkys come and go.

[Guest chalky111]

awww... it seems someone has removed my avitar from the banner?

 

shame, i was just getting popular

 

cock

[Gray]

Not really, you were just getting annoying.

[Keydoctor]

Chalky,

 

I think you'll find that there have been some good points posted here. Both by yourself and others.

 

This is not the type of forum that you will get support for any copy machine, especially a T300, as we have all invested heavily in the Advanced products.

 

I understand totally your arguement about price. But the truth is if there wasn't a company like AD the dealers would win. AD invest heavily in development to give the likes of us and you the opportunity to compete. To give the Customer a choice, dealer or independant.

 

Just looking at the asking price for a piece of equipment isnt the best way to judge if we are being ripped off. I do think that if there was stronger competition out there in a way of another quality key programmer then that would drive the price of AD products down, but they are the only real alternative to the dealer tool. But if you look behind the scenes, spend a day at the AD offices, see the cost's that they face, the efforts they put in, the shear knowledge of their staff, then you will appreciate why they have to charge.

 

An excellent example of this is VAG COM. A quality tool, no doubt about it. At under £500...... Amazing. But very little technical back up. Then you have Autologic Diagnostics. They have a VAG application, it does the same, except they have developed the software to be very easy use. If you have a problem, you can ring one of their 8 Fully VAG trained technicians, or even upload the whole vehicle file and send it to them for them to sort. The machine.... 8k. The back up - Priceless!!

 

The staff at AD are excellent, and where else can you speak directly to the managing direct if you have an issue?

 

Im sure your T300 will serve you well, as the software it contains was designed by the best. But soon the vehicles on there will become dated. When your ready I strongly recommend you attend a Hickley open day at one of the venues they have on offer, and certainly attend the next AD open day to see the investment behind the product.

 

I wish you luck, and hopefully one day catch you on the AD forum

[rapidlocks]

its not charging the locksmith every time he uses it , AD offer 2 options

 

1) buy the AD100 pro and you never pay again for the software you have already and its updated free for life, you only pay for new software covering something not on your unit, packages range from 3k to 12k dependent on the coverage you want to have.

for this you do not get charged tokens as you have bought the right to use the software for ever more.

 

2) the mvp at £1695 you have bought the hardware only and all of the software loaded and all future software at no extra cost, but you rent the right to use the software, so pay as you go , just like a phone, you pay only for what you use.

 

you really need to hook up with someone with the mvp pro or fully loaded ad100 pro, look at whats on it and use it and see the difference , all may well then become clear and i guarantee the difference will surprise you .

 

just look at ford coded , you have had to buy cryptoworks, ad users have not , there unit reads the oucode issues the incode and programs the key in under a minute, and this was a free update , older ford , no more 10 minute countdown , all done in under a minute , a vast difference.

 

look at renault , your kit cannot extract the 8 and 12 digit codes on renault , ad can do this , latest 2010 ford t300 cannot do them , vag t300 is years behind, all the software on the chinese copies is years behind.

 

have a look at one , have a play with one, and see what extra can be done and the level of coverage, its worlds apart .

 

you may not realise it , but your t300 is alraedy outdated and of little commercial use.

 

when you look at an mvp or ad pro unit package and play with it, and realise how much better it is , how much more can be done , and the fact it is updated often weekly , you will begin to understand why most prefer it and why ad are alot better value for money than you may now think they are.

 

then when you see all the boys with their copy machines , undercutting orinal machine users, you will begin to understand their frustrations.

 

look and compare , and then decide if you have the same opinions, as will then be an informed opinion rather than speculative. AD is actually far better value to those that use it than you realise and offers them a far bigger market doing the jobs you cant at present, you will also then realise why the auto lockies in the trade want ad to continue developing rather than just not bother any more, and why AD are the world leader in what they do and offer .

 

you have to justify expensive in what it returns, and for how long it can return , as stated if you charge the same price as the guy with an adpro , are you not a rip off too ? as if you bought so much cheaper you can afford to do the job that much cheaper too as no investment to recoup, which is why an auto lockie costs there investment into their prices, if copying or around these prices , can you justify them.

 

look and compare the units, then make an informed opinion , people will respect you so much more for this.

[kirkybob]

very interesting posts.

 

Iam currently looking at moving into transponder keys, and have briefly considered the chinese copies, but I wont buy from China, for the very reasons stated above.

 

1 backup especially for a newbie ( me) is paramount.

2 having worked in the electronics industry, involved in the r&d of some very complex equipment I know the cost and this MUST be recovered or there will be no further development and stagnation and decay follow.

 

I agree that prices are high and I am struggling to justify the expence, but buying one without good tech support for me 9as a newbie0 , would be stupidity, and even more costly in the long term

[rapidlocks]

but hopefully , despite the expense , it is what that piece of equipment can and will return for you in your own business profits, how long into the future it will return profits for you and how long it remains current and up to date, that determines if it is expensive or if it is a valuable business asset.

[Guest chalky111]

Not really, you were just getting annoying.

 

 

haha, you're just pissed off because i made it my avitar lol... didnt look so stupid then did i?

 

grow up

[Guest chalky111]

rapid....

 

"then when you see all the boys with their copy machines , undercutting orinal machine users, you will begin to understand their frustrations."

 

I do not charge the same prices as the AD guys do, and customers love that. i get "one guy wanted £xx its bloody robbery" and it is. So when I decide i have to buy an AD, i wont be able to be as competitive as the other guys in my area and so will be suck with a business that loses jobs to the cheap competition. You have to agree with that, otherwise the sentence above wouldnt have been mentioned.

 

"your kit cannot extract the 8 and 12 digit codes on renault"? I know, but the customer has no arguments at all when i tell them that they need the code from renault? I've even been for it myself for the customer. I am just saying that things like that dont make the price more attractive.

 

" you have had to buy cryptoworks, ad users have not , there unit reads the oucode issues the incode and programs the key in under a minute, and this was a free update" Yep, and crypto works give me the code and i do the key in under a minute, and i paid for it. Sure its free on AD machines, but its free on a machine that costs a hell of a lot more, so not really a good example, but yeah, valid.

 

"if you bought so much cheaper you can afford to do the job that much cheaper too as no investment to recoup".. I do the job cheaper, thats how i get so much work. its logic, the guy who gives the customer the key they want, at 20 - 40 quid cheaper is the good guy in the customers eyes. I've even told customers why I am cheaper, and you know what they say when i explain about AD "thats unbelievable"... The customer gets their key, they dont care where the machine came from.

 

You make a good post though, seriously

[Gray]

Not really, you were just getting annoying.

 

 

haha, you're just pissed off because i made it my avitar lol... didnt look so stupid then did i?

 

 

YES! YOU DID.

[Guest chalky111]

Not really, you were just getting annoying.

 

 

haha, you're just pissed off because i made it my avitar lol... didnt look so stupid then did i?

 

 

YES!

 

glad you agree. I'll keep it, it will remind me of you

[Gray]

Keep the avitar Buffoon. It suits you well. Wear it with pride. I cannot think of anyone who deserves it more. PM me your address and I'll engrave a nice gold badge for you to wear, that says "BUFFOON" free of charge, then you can go about your daily business and everyone can see what you are

[Mark Davis]

Rapid locks,

I agree with your points and have been an AD user since 2003 and have recouped my outlay many times over, however i'm not sure you are the best person to champion the copying cause as when i see your name the names song and lishi spring to mind followed by a whole raft of cheaper inferior products sold by trade locks.

I would imagine there are several long established manufactures of qualitly locksmith tools who would wince at reading your defence of the copying issue.

[Gray]

Oh no surley not. Do I detect another can of worms about to be opened.

[rapidlocks]

chalky at first i thought you may have been just misguided , but its now evident that this is not the case, as you actually seem to be proud of the fact that you have bought a copy product with stolen software on it;

 

would you be so proud at buying stolen jewelery , a stolen car or is it just stolen software thats ok ?

 

which ever way you wrap it up or try to justify it , you cannot , you have bought and use counterfiet products and as such are as bad as any other knock off nigel out there, in some ways worse than many , as you do so openly and with some odd pride, i just cant understand this.

 

Yes all of the wannabes running around with knock off machines have dented the trade , with the simple bread and butter stuff being mopped up by them, but it will be short lived as so outdated, i wonder what the same public would think of you if your knock off fried their ECU .

 

Its one thing to be misguided , but to show a total disregard for a company that you happily use a knock off of their product with stolen software is a farce, it is far from something to be proud of and something to boast about , or have you really no morals and no ethics at all ?

 

I hope this is largely bravado , and you actually realise that you sound no better than a common thief at present , which if true is no less than an accurate description, as copywright theft is no different than any other type of theft .

 

i hope for your sake that you wise up , or i doubt you will be in business as long as most here have been already.

 

i really cannot see the point in prolonging this one , so good luck with your business aspirations

[rapidlocks]

Mark

 

song is a distributor , lishi is the manufacturer , and the lishi products that i test for tradelocks are original lishi made by mr li himself.

i do not sell the tools, just test them .

 

song was a distributor for lishi , never a manufacturer , lishi fell out with him and went elsewhere , until he signed an exclusive deal with uap on the distribution of all his new tools, fed up with distributors making a fortune by over pricing his tools and not protecting them at all.

 

so the fact that i do not sell tools or manufacture tools, i fail to see the comparison, the fact that i get paid to test tools for this company suggests what ? other than another income stream, and the fact that im a lucky sod who gets to travel to china and spend time in a fascinating country with one of the cleverest toolmakers around in mr li who is lishi, and get paid to test these tools for lishi and get free tools as well, if thats a crime , then guilty as charged , but every lishi tool is genuine , and every lishi tool is sold at a fair price unlike when controlled by song distributors and their worldwide distributors and does exactly what it says on the tin, do not confuse patenting and protecting a brand with copying it , as li cannot copy lishi, as he is lishi and his tools are his original design, invented and owned by him and now patented and protected on his behalf by uap , if that makes them a bad company then so be it.

 

uap as far as im aware , actually own the rights to genuine lishi products until such a time as the agreement with lishi ends which will not be anytime soon , and until such time own the patents on these products, which is why no lishi 2in1 pick has ever been copied, so far from being involved with a company of poor intention , i feel ive landed on my feet and got involved with a company willing to invest in their manufacturers and protect under patent their products , and sell these at a fair price to the trade , and they sell to locksmiths only , not many can boast this.

 

but as stated if testing tools for UAP/tradelocks , and travelling and recieving my tools free is in some way wrong , im sorry i cant see this, and am happy to be involved with them in the capacity that i am.

 

and im not actually championing anyones cause for anything .

[golfmad]

So the PINKS broken key extractor set which happens to be an exact copy of the PETERSON tools broken key extractor set is nothing to do with you ??