Ultegra 884 or RW4 plus which is best ?

[cobblers.keys]

At the moment I am using the RW4 plus and am slowly being asked to copy more keys but as it doesn't copy 48 chips. I think the Ultegra 884 does. My question is would it be worth investing £1200+ in a Ultegra or can the RW4 plus be upgraded? I also have the fastcopy but this doesn't get used.

[Count Muppet]

Ultegra mini is only £250 with all software as far as I'm aware.

[cobblers.keys]

yes the mini is £249 but this is only a basic entry into car keys etc. The 884 and RW4 plus are more advanced levels.

[Lock Stock]

Are you planning to be mobile or shop based with the machine?

 

I also know I lot of you here love the Keyline machines but you need bare in mind they use expensive heads to clone the keys. There will be no difference in price between the two machines your looking at once you've cloned around 80-100 keys. Your paying £6-£9 more on a head against the GTI chip.

 

There are other machines that make the GTI chip seem expensive to use as well.

[grahamparker]

I have been told by a source that one of the biggest key manuacturers are waiting to see if there will be any legel action taken against Keyline in respect of the id48 cloning.

 

They also already have  an "ID48 cloning solution" ready to roll but are waiting to see what happens.

 

I'm sure others may be in a similar position.

 

With this in mind i wouldn't jump in to buying another cloner just yet.

[cobblers.keys]

Hi Lockstock,

I am shop based only but with a car park opposite me so can go to vehicle as well. Graham, can you give me more info? Thanks all

[hibsjo(SCO)]

its great that the car manufacturer that hates us most for copying their chips is the one whos cheating millions of people with their software fix lolol

carry on!

[grahamparker]

All i can say is keep your RW4.

[Lock Stock]

I have been told by a source that one of the biggest key manuacturers are waiting to see if there will be any legel action taken against Keyline in respect of the id48 cloning.

 

They also already have  an "ID48 cloning solution" ready to roll but are waiting to see what happens.

 

I'm sure others may be in a similar position.

 

With this in mind i wouldn't jump in to buying another cloner just yet.

 

Your right it's not just Silca who have already done cloning on VW 48. This was done a long time ago by others.

 

Some other machines already clone the older 48's (Chevrolet-Daewoo). The reason this is ok is because it doesn't infringe on the patent that exist on the chip. Though in order to clone the 48 on VW you need to infringe on the patent which is now the issue.

 

Most are waiting to see if any action is taken up with Keyline.

 

There will be lots of movement by all when the time is right.

[Lee]

but you need bare in mind they use expensive heads to clone the keys. There will be no difference in price between the two machines your looking at once you've cloned around 80-100 keys. Your paying £6-£9 more on a head against the GTI chip.

 

Thats Wrong, what ever machine you are considering, compare CURRENT prices of components.

[Lock Stock]

Thats Wrong, what ever machine you are considering, compare CURRENT prices of components.

 

Sorry your right Lee not a fair reflection, my prices were from when I used to buy them, There was no TK100 head then.

 

But in fairness if we are talking 46 or the 48 when its released on the Miraclone there is a big difference.   

 

If you clone 30x 4D, 10x 4C and 30x 46 a year. The Keyline machine will be £378 + vat more to clone. If that's a year it will be a lot more over the life of the machine.

 

 

1x TK100 head £12.50 + Horseshoe £2.20 = £14.70 

1x TMK head £16.50 + Horseshoe £2.20 = £18.70 73.5

 

1x ADX (4C+4D) chip £8.40 + key £2.40 = £10.80

1x ADA (46) chip £4.90 + Key £2.40 = £7.30

1x ADW (48) chip £4 + key £2.40 = £6.40

 

Now when the 48 is released across the board Keyline will be £12.30 more per key to clone more for me.    

[Lee]

I have been told by a source that one of the biggest key manuacturers are waiting to see if there will be any legel action taken against Keyline in respect of the id48 cloning.

I have been chatting to an even BIGGER source today & apparently this is not correct either.

[Davenport Burgess Support]

884 MINI vs 884 Ultegra: The  884 Mini requires internet connection and is mobile.  The 884 Ultegra can operate as standalone unit, but requires mains power. Ultegra programs RK60, Mini does not. All other functions are the same.

 

Ref ID48: Both Mini and Ultegra clone some ID48’s (see list below). The low cost Mini is the cheapest solution (PC/tablet/Smartphone required).  Both the 884 Mini and the 884 Ultegra have the TKM upgrade either integrated (884 Mini) or as a separate upgrade (884 Ultegra).  The Ultegra is currently on sale at a greatly reduced price and has the TKM upgrade included.

 

ID48 Clone List

 

Brand                         Model             From   to

AUDI  (D)                   A2                   2000    2003

AUDI (D)                   A3                   1997    2003

AUDI (D)                   A4                   1997    2003

AUDI (D)                   A6                   1997    2003

AUDI (D)                   A8                   1997    2003

AUDI (D)                   Allroad            2000    2003

AUDI (D)                   A4 Cabrio       1997    2003

AUDI (D)                   Coupe              1997    2003

AUDI (D)                   TT                    1998    2003

SEAT (E)                    Cordoba          2001    2003

SEAT (E)                    Ibiza                2000    2003

SEAT (E)                    Leon                1999    2003

Skoda (CZ)                 Fabia               2000    2003

Skoda (CZ)                 Felicia              1999    2003

Skoda (CZ)                 Octavia            2001    2003

Skoda (CZ)                 Superb             2002    2003

Volkswagon (D)         Bora                1998    2003

Volkswagon (D)         Gol                  1999    2003

Volkswagon (D)         Golf                 1998    2003

Volkswagon (D)         Jetta                 2000    2003

Volkswagon (D)         New Beetle     1998    2003

Volkswagon (D)         Passatt             1998    2003

Volkswagon (D)         Polo                 2001    2003

 

*The list of vehicles mentioned above can be integrated with new car models and is subject to updating.

** All the brands and trade marks mentioned here a

[Davenport Burgess Support]

We can confirm no communications have been made between Keyline Italy and any OEM manufacturers in respect of ID48 cloning, and no legal communications are anticipated

[cobblers.keys]

that is interesting reading Davenport Burgess Support but what do you think about 884 Ultegra v's RW4 plus? Does anyone know if the RW4 plus can/will be able to clone ID48 chips because that is what I am missing sales on.

[grahamparker]

Just wait for the floodgates to open.

[rapidlocks]

884 MINI vs 884 Ultegra: The  884 Mini requires internet connection and is mobile.  The 884 Ultegra can operate as standalone unit, but requires mains power. Ultegra programs RK60, Mini does not. All other functions are the same.

 

Ref ID48: Both Mini and Ultegra clone some ID48’s (see list below). The low cost Mini is the cheapest solution (PC/tablet/Smartphone required).  Both the 884 Mini and the 884 Ultegra have the TKM upgrade either integrated (884 Mini) or as a separate upgrade (884 Ultegra).  The Ultegra is currently on sale at a greatly reduced price and has the TKM upgrade included.

 

ID48 Clone List

 

Brand                         Model             From   to

AUDI  (D)                   A2                   2000    2003

AUDI (D)                   A3                   1997    2003

AUDI (D)                   A4                   1997    2003

AUDI (D)                   A6                   1997    2003

AUDI (D)                   A8                   1997    2003

AUDI (D)                   Allroad            2000    2003

AUDI (D)                   A4 Cabrio       1997    2003

AUDI (D)                   Coupe              1997    2003

AUDI (D)                   TT                    1998    2003

SEAT (E)                    Cordoba          2001    2003

SEAT (E)                    Ibiza                2000    2003

SEAT (E)                    Leon                1999    2003

Skoda (CZ)                 Fabia               2000    2003

Skoda (CZ)                 Felicia              1999    2003

Skoda (CZ)                 Octavia            2001    2003

Skoda (CZ)                 Superb             2002    2003

Volkswagon (D)         Bora                1998    2003

Volkswagon (D)         Gol                  1999    2003

Volkswagon (D)         Golf                 1998    2003

Volkswagon (D)         Jetta                 2000    2003

Volkswagon (D)         New Beetle     1998    2003

Volkswagon (D)         Passatt             1998    2003

Volkswagon (D)         Polo                 2001    2003

 

*The list of vehicles mentioned above can be integrated with new car models and is subject to updating.

** All the brands and trade marks mentioned here a

Just to add to the difference between the 884 mini and the full ultegra 884 unit , it is absolutely correct that the full 884 clones to RK60 and the mini does not , but there is also another difference in coverage too , the full 884 clones the ID41 , id42 , id44 and id45 to the TK50 heads , the mini currently doesnt have this coverage either at this time , the only phillips 1st generation crypto it has is some early id40 to T5 .

 

The mini has alot of coverage for a very small price , for those with other machines and just wanting the id48 coverage then a mini is a cheap add on kit to what you already use , i cant imagine theres anyone who could not turn a profit from such a low investment cost .

 

im fortunate enough to have both the 884 and the rw4 plus machines , as well as zedbull , nd900 , tag tool and tango , i use them all and i find all machines have their strengths and the weaknesses on certain tasks , i use them all prefering different machines for different jobs , id find it hard to say which machine is out and out the best of the lot after all they all do much the same thing , one has something the others dont but they all catch up in the end with each other and pole position changes quickly , whether you choose 884 , rw4 plus , miraclone , touchclone , jma trs5000 , ad900 , zedfull etc , you will end up with a really good machine that will earn its corn and stay up to date , all are well supported , al are updated , and all are great machines , they will frustrate you when they fall behind others and put a smile on your face when they take the lead regardless .

the downside is no matter what advancements they make the chinese will soon copy it and clone it , develop cheaper chip options and so on .

 

but if you buy silca , keyline , lockdecoders you wont be far behind and will always have a worthwhile piece of kit , im sure within 12 months they will all be offering varying id48 coerage sadly the chinese as well , so which ever mainstream machine you choose you will at some point have id48 cloning , in the meantime if you really cant wait , then the 884 mini at the price will give you instant access to id48 cloning now and at its price if you cant recoup this and make money in the short term whilst you wait for the floodgates to open , then you probably dont need id48 cloning anyway and may as well just wait , as i reckon 5 to 6 keys and you have recovered all costs and entered into profit , even if in 6 months your other machine has this you will have made far more than the cost of the 884 mini and i reckon some profits too , after all its always better to profit whilst its exclusive as after the floodgates open everyone has it and edges and advantages are gone , so if turning this work away then to me it seems a no brainer to buy a mini for the short term at least , i guess the question is if you had or have an 884 mini for even just 6 months before anyone else , how much revenue will it make you versus its cost ? if worthwhile profit then you need one and worse scenario is once floodgates open its paid for turned a profit and remains a worthwhile back up machine.  , my 884 has paid for itself over on id48 and on rk60 jobs , my rw4 plus has paid for itself over , zedbull despite dropping behind has paid for itself over and over , most of my mainstream kit has done so and with silca , keyline and lockdecoders kits you will continue to make money regardless of which you choose, and all have a great reputation for support too.

 

it is impossible to say which is best , as all of our needs differ so the best is the one that fits your needs best and the one that gives you the returns you need and copes with the coverage you need most .

 

if i had to say which is best between rw4 plus and 884 then id be stuck for an answer , for me nothing beats rw4 plus on id46 because of the snoop , i love this bit of kit as 100% know when all data is sniffed and it does so much quicker than blindly sniffing , though they all get the job done , i just love the snoop on id46 , but 884 gives me good income via the rk60 heads which have been a great seller for me and ive benefitted from id48 cloning for months now which has also been productive for me , so id not be without either .

[grahamparker]

Ultegra mini is only £250 with all software as far as I'm aware.

 

£199 at NW Keys

[rapidlocks]

£199 at 3d group and tradelocks as well at present and i suspect davenports too , they are all running the same promotion i believe as a keyline inspired promotion.

 

il be interested to see when the floodgates open whether it will be a free upgrade on other machines , priced in line with keyline or more expensive and whether a new chip is developed. im sure they are all working on this but a chip that retro fits in oem remotes would be very useful and would certainly be sought after by many , me included , and also keen to see if all solutions require internet or if a stand alone solution is released by someone .

im also interested in whether the future versions uses snoop like device as would be a bonus if case.

 

once fully clonable , id put money on VAG moving from megamoss to another chip unless megamoss come up with a new generation chip of course , its a never ending money drain and learning curve keeping up with it all .

[grahamparker]

Silca machine will require a hardware upgrade of some form maybe another plug in expansion so bound to cost extra.

[lock&quay]

I'm considering expanding on what i can do in my shop , I have the RW4 & PBox . I'm not interested in call outs & was just thinking about the 884  Ultergra  as from what I've read doesn't need a internet connection but would I have to get Key line key blades ?  any in put welcome . cheers .

[rapidlocks]

the full 884 doesnt need internet for id46 etc , but an internet connection is required for id48 vag cloning , and yes it only clones to T5 chip for id33 and their own tk heads and horse shoe blades .