keithm Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Michael, please don't apologise. In this trade, you will learn something everyday, it's par for the course. I've been in it 30 years and I'm still learning You should actually be commended for taking an interest and looking to improve your skills One massive advantage of this site is that there is so much experience here that you cannot help but learn Your groover is indeed adjustable but be careful. From memory, your stitcher has an adjustable 'Scotch Edge'. This part allows the user to set different depths for different widths of Welt. Adjust this to 2mm back from the slot where the needle and awl pass through the table. Now offer up a leather sole and run the awl through the leather by hand, resting it on the scoth edge, it will make a hole. That is the position you should set your groover. Please note, this is not a definative setting, just a guide starting point. Over time, you will develop the ability to make a change in order to achieve a desired effect. I always suggest having 2 groovers, so that you rarely have to adjust either, one for blaking and one for outsole. So many problems can occur with outsolers where the operator is putting too much weight behind the shoe, desperately trying to stich in a groove that is set too far back off the Welt, or tilting the shoe, not good. Tension on the needles can break them, along with needle guides, and damage tables! Just allow the stitcher to feed through without resistance and just a little pressure, that's all. I hope this helps Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Thanks for the advice Keith.Just checked my groover and seems right for outsoler but where should a blake groove go,or does it depend on construction of shoe.I have noticed that some shoes that need blaking need grooves quite far into the shoe and I usually cut these grooves by hand. I suppose another groover that I just use for blaking and can adjust to different widths when necessary would be quite handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted January 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Just to expand on my own thoughts for grafts, as mentioned & criticised I always bring the leather ½ soles as far back as possible. In the case of moulded footwear I bring the joint as far back as the heel block, this is for 2 reasons. 1. Its aesthetically pleasing to the eye, making the repair look far more complete. 2. It strengthens the joint. So, back to leather ½ soles and nailing the waist most wouldn’t nail a moulded sole replacement or the heels, leather is attached in a similar way AND is stitched meaning more is holding it than my moulded repair, so why nail them as well?????? Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I certainly didn't critise your waist line Lee. I said I wouldn't normally take them back that far, unless I had a reason. I don't see anything wrong with it. It is a succesfull quality repair. I thought the job you did was good, Really. Judging by some of the comments It is certainly better than most could match. At least your prepared to put Pictures up for members to judge. I would have put complete units on those boots. They would have looked even better. I don't think its a nice looking job, even though it is probably done to a good standard. I'm not really over keen on the materials you've used here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted January 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I'm not really over keen on the materials you've used here. However in this case the customer said Quote:" I don't want anything chunky" So it served the purpose of demonstrating the theory of a waist graph as far back as possible. Besides that, the units you show are not as flexible as the original mouldings, so wouldn't be my first choice for these anyway, to heavy, not flexible enough & for budget footwear such as these to expensive........ But surely thats another debate! Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I'm not really over keen on the materials you've used here. However in this case the customer said Quote:" I don't want anything chunky" So it served the purpose of demonstrating the theory of a waist graph as far back as possible. Besides that, the units you show are not as flexible as the original mouldings, so wouldn't be my first choice for these anyway, to heavy, not flexible enough & for budget footwear such as these to expensive........ But surely thats another debate! Lee These Units are extremely flexable and very very light, They are similar material as gumlite, if not the same. If the original unit was taken right down to about 1mm they wouldn't be chunky. Very similar to original. But as you say thats another debate.......lets start another one then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted January 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Very similar to original. Not really! the original has a "Subtle" tread in the middle of the sole pattern, which was no more than 1mm from new. These boots are never design to be walking or heavy duty boots. In my opinion your units are not reflective of the original design. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Ok Chunky fella, they ain't quite the same, but they would look better than the material you've used Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I certainly didn't critise your waist line Lee. No, you just took the pi$$ outta his new chins!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I certainly didn't critise your waist line Lee. No, you just took the pi$$ outta his new chins!!!! :lol:just prayed me arctic roll over the screen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I certainly didn't critise your waist line Lee. No, you just took the pi$$ outta his new chins!!!! Brilliant that one Kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Just spent 30 mins writing a report on this waist busines and lost the whole lot by going back to check a point, go back once and its fine but if you go from there to another reference point you cant get back to your partly completed posting. It must be somewhere out ther e floating about but I've given up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 On the rubber longish sole be very wary of this type of footwear, for this reason. This manufacturing proccess came about during the 70s (if I remeber correctly) The leather skin sole embedded in a PVC moulded unit only goes to a point just under the heel breast, this makes a very weak area that is prone to breaking during wear (I have the SATRA test report on this). As a precaution always flex the heel at this point before taking the shoe in to see if there are hairline fractures of the PVC at the point where the hell breast meets the sole (visible at the sides of the sole). This is a manufacturing fault, dont get caught out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auto Key Wizard Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 Just spent 30 mins writing a report on this waist business and lost the whole lot by going back to check a point, Use 'Notepad' to compose it in first, then copy>paste to your reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 Just spent 30 mins writing a report on this waist busines and lost the whole lot by going back to check a point, go back once and its fine but if you go from there to another reference point you cant get back to your partly completed posting. It must be somewhere out ther e floating about but I've given up. Do it again, I want to see it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 Will do, but I'm going to use MS Word and cut & paste. Cant be arsed at the moment though as it reet pissed me orf as they say in Yorkshire with a with a Knightsbridge accent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 On the rubber longish sole be very wary of this type of footwear, for this reason. This manufacturing proccess came about during the 70s (if I remeber correctly) The leather skin sole embedded in a PVC moulded unit only goes to a point just under the heel breast, this makes a very weak area that is prone to breaking during wear (I have the SATRA test report on this). As a precaution always flex the heel at this point before taking the shoe in to see if there are hairline fractures of the PVC at the point where the hell breast meets the sole (visible at the sides of the sole). This is a manufacturing fault, dont get caught out. Thats why I'd use a full unit 9/10. Complete units don't have to be an expensive repair, especially on PVC. You can buy plastic units for £5ish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 My thought entirely PlanetUK900, I would never do a half sole on this type of footwear for this very reason as the fault may develop after you have repaired them. Then you are up shite street. Yer know Uk90 yer not a bad lad after all are yer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 Ok here is my post from this morning. In reply to a post long ago, sorry but the original post was lost. This sole was more ¾ than half. Nor justifying the use of rivets, just explaining that there has to be movement that glueing does not allow. The 2 leather soles back to back allows you to see what happens when 2 surfaces bend together, the outside one has to move over a grater distance. We know that this is not how Goodyear footwear are constructed but it simplifies the point of how leather of any other substance alters length when bent over anther piece of the same material. Glueing everything together stops this process. The use of Brass rivets does not cause the damage that Iron ones do as they (brass)are much softer. These do not turn over and form a barb like square shanked IVI rivets, but you have to use the correct length for them to be effective. Once again I do not condone the use of rivets on half soles (unless my own shoes). As for Hibs point about stitching at the waist, this is only a problem when the thin tapered part of the new sole is grooved to the edge. Glued and stitched without the groove at the waist is the strongest but no necessarily the best job. Manufacturers do not glue sole onto welts, neither do they glue soles to midsoles or heel lifts to heel lifts other than the 1st 2 in a Traditional Goodyear construction as there has to be movement between each layer. What does Uk900 mean “IF†Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 The use of Brass rivets does not cause the damage that Iron ones do as they (brass)are much softer. These do not turn over and form a barb like square shanked IVI rivets, but you have to use the correct length for them to be effective. What is a Rivet?????? A Rivet is something that is flattened or turned over at both ends in order to hold two materials together. In the shoe repair case one end is flattened already and the other end goes to a fine point so as it easilly flattens the other end when it hits the last. http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/rivet?view=uk If you don't flatten the end on the last, the nails will ride back out within days of wearing them. Hope it wasn't you Hugh who helped Rivet the Titanic together. Come on somebody back me up here, or is it only me who knows owt round here Once again I do not condone the use of rivets on half soles (unless my own shoes). Can't believe you just said that......Are you pi55ed up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auto Key Wizard Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 These do not turn over and form a barb like square shanked IVI rivets, but you have to use the correct length for them to be effective. If you don't flatten the end on the last, the nails will ride back out within days of wearing them. Come on somebody back me up here, or is it only me who knows owt round here Yup, yup I agree with ya, maybe the brass rivets had been superglued Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Have a butchers on a box of IVIs, does it not say "Rivets" Technically they are nails. A Rivet is formed by the method planetUK900 describes but the blanks ued in Rivetting on a Ship or in Industry are also called Rivets before they are compressed under pressure. I use Copper Rivets for many applications, the type you used to see on Leather Cycle Seats, very handy. A Rivet or Nail compressed at the end or flared to hold in a shoe Insole is not a "Barb" a Barb is something very different. Very good Tel200 I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobblers Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 i always thought that rivet was too broad a term for a fastening anyway, always confused the hell outta me nails are nails as far as i'm concerned unless they're pins which tend to be a whole lot finer. rivets are the things you use on a handbag strap, a chair/clog edge or to fix your wobbly ironing board don't get me started on tacks or brads anyway, what's in a name? what a fascinating topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Just logged on after getting bored to death trying to find a cheapo holiday for March. I'm intreeg'd ascap, how do you repair an ironing board with a rivet? I had to weld ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 A Rivet is compressed at both ends to attach two pieces of material... Period A nail has a head on one end and is used to drive into materials to attach, but is not compressed on the other end. Period. It doesn't matter whether they are brass, copper, metal etc. they are what they are. and one is used in a different way to the other. The reason why this has been drawn to our attention is because Hugh reckons there is no need for the Rivets in a waistline to go through the insole and flatten the end on the last: That is wrong. If the Rivets don't flatten on the last they will ride back out within a few wears, without a shaddow of a doubt. If anyone disagrees with that then I would have to question thier technical ability. I am well aware what a "Barb" is Hughby, I used the word as a simily, To get my point over A barb is meant to prevent the "Hook" from coming out once it has penetrated whatever it has pierced, Similar to a rivet flattened at the end when hitting your last. If your going to rivet your waists then at least be aware of the proper way to do it, and how the rivet works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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