Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Out browsing today to save on my heating (skinflint) I was looking as usual at shoe fashion trends and construction. Shop was M&S, most of the shoes were of the "Clarks" comfy type for the combined use of casual and business, good marketing ploy there I thought. Then I came to the Leather soled shoes, most were branded "Jeffery West" and were mainly single sole with a mock welt and retailing at £59, not a bad price for what was a decent quality. Then I saw the above shoes, again Jeffery West brand and I thought , hey they aint made a bad job of making them look like a goodyear welted shoe here!! closer inspection found them to be fully leather lined although the printing inside was a bit garish. Further examination showed them to be of exceptional quality, low and behold they were indeed genuine goodyear welts. Now the surprise......Normal Retail price £59.... What!!!! they must have got that wrong, anything made in this country to that standard you can add another £100 on top. Next surprise.......Made in India.... Now with many repairers charging this for a through sole and going upward to £100 what chance is there of building a business that purchases a goodyear stitcher and full ensemble when the customer can purchase these superb shoes at the price equivelent or cheaper than a through sole repair. Photos were from my phone so the true quality will not show up. I cant for the life of me understand why there was not a difference in the price form single sole to goodyear welted. Certainly the customer would not be aware of how much extra work went into making these shoes. Is this the death knoll for British manufacturing on gents welted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auto Key Wizard Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Click on the banner Broms Cobb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Thanks to the Iron lady who destroyed manufacturing in this country. we are now the dump of the world, and when they've killed off shoe manufacturing in this country, the price will go up. Sames happening to the lock and key blank trade. I remember when I could buy a sheet of engravers brass for about 20% of what I'm paying since the chinese brought it all. We will destroy ourselves, sad but true....................... O' and I'm not getting into a political row with any one, especially Hugh Broms Cobb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted February 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Very interesting that link Tel, it claims that they are all made in the british tradition in Northamptonshire. Taking a long time to get the site altered. It also pours scorn upon those who have their shoes made up in the far east. I wonder how fast the web site will re-format. Perhaps they exported all the machinery and materials, then the production staff went to set it all up and run it for 2 years, that way they can say its in the Northamptonshire tradition. They look like they are made from Uk leather exported to India but I may be wrong. Never seen anything this good come out of India, apart from Shilpa Shetty come to thnk of it,.....Wests had a tie up somehow with Cheaney, I think wests produced the design for Cheaney to manufacture under the West branding. I may be way off track but I have seen a couple of pairs of the brand coming out of the repair factory some years ago. will Cheaney follow suit, will Cheaney be able to survive, will they have to downsize or go abroad with their manufacturing plant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted February 19, 2008 Report Share Posted February 19, 2008 From every negative theres a positive. End off the road? This product is a great way of maybe getting the plastic everything brigade to maybe think about spending another £10 on a pair of shoes & heading for M&S. A few months down the line they realise these shoes are OK & rather than throwing them bring them in for a heel, a SOS or even a new leather sole. Great news! Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted February 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2008 I liike that train of thought Lee, very good, never crossed my mind. I dont know how they retail them at that price, they must be buying them in £30 or less. I understand and agree with your logic but how do you get over the repair cost compared to the price of a new pair? Yes there is the opportunity for a heeling and maybe a Stick-on-sole but leather through soles or even half soles!!! Rendenbach would probably be out of the question thinks I. you guys are in the forefront, what would be a suitable price for half and full soles on a £59 shoe. And... would re-welting be out priced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted February 19, 2008 Report Share Posted February 19, 2008 I would like to see these shoes, although if Hugh says they are high quality I believe him. I agree with Lee, sos & heel. I also agree with Hugh I'm currently charging £49.50 for exec through sole and LH 1/4 Rubbers. If customers can buy shoes of the same quality as Cheaney, Barkers,Grensons etc (which I think the quality is dwaining, plastic welts, and sub-standard heel blocks) then I feel it could be the end of Quality shoe repairs. I feel wholesalers and manufacturers should also be aware that they might need to trim thier prices, esspecially Leather. Maybe leather manufacturers should deal direct with repairers and cut the middle man out. Now look what you've made me say carry on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted February 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2008 To anyone with an M&S store selling these shoes near to I would strongly advise popping in to see them, they are all Leather. At first I thought that the lining was Polyurethane, but no its leather and a full lining at that. No plastic welts although I would not mind plastic welts on a waterproof shoe such as Golf shoes etc. If I was after a new pair of shoes right now these would be the ones I would choose, and I'm a fussy bastard As for cutting out the Wholesaler with Leather, they do have to exist or you would not get the other stock just when you needed it most. With the manufacturing going abroad in alarming numbers I wonder if there will be a Leather sole manufacturer left in the UK after the next 2 years. I feel that the bulk of the Leather will come in from Asia or Europe with particular emphasis on Italy as they tend to be buying the Skins from accross europe. The price of these M&S shoes alarms me on one side, amazes me on another and pleases me that I can now go and purchase shoes that I would only buy as rejects or damaged customer returns in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 A large majority of my customers don't have shoes repaired on price alone. they have them repaired because they are comfortable & repairing is part of there "life cycle" I have on many occasions, infact almost daily charged more than the replacement cost of a shoe & the customer hasn't blinked an eye simply because they know the work will make the shoes as good if not better than when new. Someone who spends £200 on a pair of shoes will always spend £200 they wouldn't think "I must find a pair cheaper" its horses for courses. I look forward to the new wave of repairs from good quality shoes at value for money prices reaching my shop for repair in the near future. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janner Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 This is worrying, but I have to agree with Lee. Those who pay £200 and a lot more for shoes are the same people who buy quality watches, though an excellent time piece can be got for £20. Some people have money, and wear quality. These people would feel cheapened if they bought cheap goods, the satisfaction can be in saying I wear x quality brand. The same with repairs, offer my customers leather sole and heel for £20 and I would lose them. They like quality and feel cheated if it not as expensive as they expect, They like the x quality, and to say they have them repaired, it cost me £63 for sole quarter rubber mind you, but it is worth it. These are the customers the trade has to look after. A third of the price of a new pair is the minimum charge for repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted February 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 one third is the way repair prices were set in the 50s and has not changed, but that was one third of british manufactured shoes. How would you now do the pricing structure on a £59 shoe ~£20 ? is this a satisfactory price? I agree Lee there are folk who will pay more than the cost for a repair due to the comfort factor, mainly old gits like me with sensitive feet. I aint saying that repairs will suffer, just asking is it the start of the decline and thowing the open question to invite a responce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobblers Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 i'm intrigued janner, are you saying that you charge a third of the cost of a new pair of shoes for just mens' full repairs or is that for all repairs? how would you go on if someone came in with a pair of leather soled shoes that could be got for £30 at somewhere like TJ Hughes? surely you wouldn't just charge a tenner? don't take my post the wrong way, no malice is intended by my question; i just don't understand the practicality of a price structure like that. especially as i'm in a market town where the price spent on most men's shoes very rarely exceeds the £60 to £80 mark. rick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bren Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 If the public start to but decent shoes that can be repaired prperly then i'm all for it. Most of my work is plastic stuff which i don't mind because you know once it's on it stays on. Repairing those J West's will mean less wear and tear on bands/machinery and no need for primers. Profit could work out just the same in the long run. People may even be more likely to get a half decent shoe repaired instead of binning 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 i'm intrigued janner, are you saying that you charge a third of the cost of a new pair of shoes for just mens' full repairs or is that for all repairs? how would you go on if someone came in with a pair of leather soled shoes that could be got for £30 at somewhere like TJ Hughes? surely you wouldn't just charge a tenner? don't take my post the wrong way, no malice is intended by my question; i just don't understand the practicality of a price structure like that. especially as i'm in a market town where the price spent on most men's shoes very rarely exceeds the £60 to £80 mark. rick. Well I'm going to say what Rick is thinking. one third is the way repair prices were set in the 50s and has not changed, but that was one third of british manufactured shoes. Is there any substance to that remark!!!!!!! If so were did it come from!!!!!!!! I can't believe anyone, or any company would be that idiotic to base there prices on the value of the shoes. Your prices should be based on, cost of materials, time involved, and the extent of the work required. prices were set in the 50s and has not changed Again, is there any substance to this statement!!!!! were did it come from!!!!!!!! I've been in the game 31 years and I've never come across it. Anyone who prices in this way is a buffoon. and deserves to go bankrupt. I can't believe anyone on here believes thats the correct way to do business of any kind, never mind our industry. PLEASE keep it sensible & real Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobblers Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 i've been in the game 20 years and i've only ever come across an instance where somebody charged according to the retail cost of the shoes and that was a letter in the cutting edge publication. i'm still no wiser how this would work though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 i've been in the game 20 years and i've only ever come across an instance where somebody charged according to the retail cost of the shoes and that was a letter in the cutting edge publication. It was probably Hugh's letter i'm still no wiser how this would work though It wouldn't......... It just isn't an ethical way to do business, its a total nonsense in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 I agree Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted February 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 I've been in the game 31 years and I've never come across it. Anyone who prices in this way is a buffoon. and deserves to go bankrupt. I can't believe anyone on here believes thats the correct way to do business of any kind, never mind our industry. PLEASE keep it sensible & real I'll tell you how it was, how it really really was, it was like this. During the 50 and very early 60s the Shoes a customer purchased from a retail establishment would have been manufactured in the UK. The average prices for Gents, please bear in mind that at this time the majority were goodyear Welted, were £2.00 £2.50 £3.00 depending upon grade. The average was of course £2.50 and the cost of the half sole and heel repair was set at one third of the cost of the average shoe. This equated to 83 old pence aqnd I fully remember saying at the time that as soon as repairs went over £1 no-one would have their shoes repaired. This structure carried on for scores of years up until the present time where the price of a half sole and heel would be in general comparison to a third of the cost of the average shoe (Loakes better quality can be taken for an average working ). The diffence nowadays between the shoddy shoes and the top of the range is vast and really bears no resemblence to the third ruling that is still operated by the people who set price structures for repairs within the industry. Someone makes a decision on a structure, it may be a trade body such as SOMSR and the like, it may be a group such as The Thames Valley Traders Association, it may be one or more of the Multiples, or a conglomeration of Independents, but someone has it done and the majority of the rest of the trade bears these prices in mind when fomulating their own price list. Is this another instance of undermine the foundations if you dont like the building? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janner Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 38 years ago I became self employed, and a employer and trainer. Over these years various people have thought me fair game, to go off half cocked, be rude and call me names. Yet here I am still sub sixty, working the hours I want, at more of a paying hobby than working for a living. The rude buffoons, flash in the pans, unable to stay the course. At the JR tannery dinner I was pleased to hear the JR lady praise English made shoes, and surprised to hear her say ‘the cost of repair should be a third of the cost of new pair’. As a young man I listened and learnt, and the history is that during the forties & fifties a third was the benchmark, and a good benchmark on judging viability of repairing any item. A third is still the starting point of pricing, but it is not the only tool. Years ago I decided I was in the quality market, and that I wanted a third of the quality shoe for leather repairs. Today’s £200 - £250 shoes. Then I price for the rest using this charge as a basis. It is not perfect but what is. The third of £60 repair was to show that all that can be done is a stick a sole & heel. In the seventies, Saturdays were not normal repair days, but while you wait stiletto day. I used to compete with my staff as to who would be the first to do 50 pair in a hour. I can still very comfortably do 25 pair a hour. Say £50 gross profit per hour, plus 30p top piece, giving say a charge of £2.50 a pair. I just cut 80 the same Yale keys, it took me less than 40 minutes, plus 10p per blank, giving say a charge of 75p each. QED any argument over pricing by material cost and time taken is debunked. Prices are what the market will stand. I joined because I am still open to learning, and a believer in the interchange of old and new methods and thoughts. Not to be insulted by idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 Is this another instance of undermine the foundations if you dont like the building? No it isn't. Its a case of reading a post and thinking how ridiculas it is to base prices on a third of the original purchase price. Whats wrong with the proper way of quoting for a job. Materials, labour etc thats the proper way Broms Cobb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kam Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 sorry, but did john timpson not have the same price structure? i read in his book. he now have 500 shops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted February 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 Yes he abode by this principle, he was one of the many multiples that applied this same principle, who first thought of the ruling I know not. By the way, this is where I first learned the principle 50 years ago along with Coombes,Paynes and the Co-op. It was a general rule applied by all at the time and well documented in the annals of cobbling history. My working colleagues and I all worked for these companies and were all aware of the pricing structure. I think it was also used by the Boot & Shoe Operatives Union to set the Piecework rates, at least it had a bearing on the rates. Eh by gum lad you got my brain working there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 sorry, but did john timpson not have the same price structure?i read in his book. he now have 500 shops. t;]Eh by gum lad you got my brain working there. Not very well though. It was a general rule applied by all at the time and well documented in the annals of cobbling history. And were can one find "the annals of cobbling history" Or are the quotes coming from the annal itself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k4mrc Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 talkin of 'cheap' shoes - this is an ad emailed to me..... In order to make way for new styles in our spring catalogue we are delighted to offer you the opportunity to purchase a limited selection of Handmade Leather Shoes for a never to be repeated price of £20 a pair. We anticipate demand to be high and have a limited amount of stock available, so orders are Telephone only. We also have a range of Samuel Windsor two fold classic 100's cotton shirts to clear for an unbelievable price of just £15 thats an incredible £35 off the normal price. dont think i will be responding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted February 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 Wow, that's a real bargain, even at double the price Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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