Craig Gardner Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Customer comes in this morning wanting 5 mortice keys for a new lock,nice shiny new E*S 5 lever non BS lock (crap) turns out he was sold this by hardware company for fitting to external door! So what would you do? cut the keys? £20 quid in the till! or tell him that his insurance wont accept the lock as it is not BS. and lose the sale thoughts carry on! just had the same today in came a guy with the brass 5 lever e*s keys but with the new lock in the box as he has had a e*s brass key cut at timpsons and it wont go into the lock. he is correct e*s original blank to thick i had to use brass chubb key and the box and lock had ss standard markings on them. craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest downsarf Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Just a quick question how do you know his insurance states a bs lock must be fitted ? Some policies allow a 5 lever lock as long as two rack bolts etc are fitted.I read a policy just the other day for a customer who had concerns on his security and the insurance implications.Basically he was covered to their specification as the policy required even though he only had a 5 lever lock fitted. Advise he should check his policy on the lock and cut the keys if he wants them cut but you are in no position to advise anymore without looking at the individual policy as they all vary somewhat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Friend Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 The requirements of each insurance company varies a great deal, last year I trawled them all and had a few surprises. All their websites contain the information, if you have the time to find it. Many quote the MLA/ABI guidlines and that is a BS lock on the final exit or the MPL equivelent all other doors a 5 lever lock and two key operated bolts, all windows on the ground and accessible windows on the first floor should be fitted with key operated window locks - depending on their size may need two. Others say a 5 lever lock. I have always stated that these are minimum standards and so are those printed by the insurance company. Each customer should read their policy document and if they are not sure contact their insureres and ask for confirmation in WRITING. Thus if you advise that BS locks should be fitted, where possible to all doors, and all windows on the ground and those that can be reached off roofs, walls, rubbish bins etc upstairs -you cannot be wrong. What is wrong where a supplier advises a customer that a inferior product 'will do' or chucks a none BS lock at a customer to replace a BS lock, ignorance is no excuse and in my opinion the insurance companies will soon start trying to offload their claims on anyone they can find may be liable - happens in many countries now. Anyone wants my dummies guide to domestic security - ask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithm Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 The requirements of each insurance company varies a great deal, last year I trawled them all and had a few surprises. All their websites contain the information, if you have the time to find it.Many quote the MLA/ABI guidlines and that is a BS lock on the final exit or the MPL equivelent all other doors a 5 lever lock and two key operated bolts, all windows on the ground and accessible windows on the first floor should be fitted with key operated window locks - depending on their size may need two. Others say a 5 lever lock. I have always stated that these are minimum standards and so are those printed by the insurance company. Each customer should read their policy document and if they are not sure contact their insureres and ask for confirmation in WRITING. Thus if you advise that BS locks should be fitted, where possible to all doors, and all windows on the ground and those that can be reached off roofs, walls, rubbish bins etc upstairs -you cannot be wrong. What is wrong where a supplier advises a customer that a inferior product 'will do' or chucks a none BS lock at a customer to replace a BS lock, ignorance is no excuse and in my opinion the insurance companies will soon start trying to offload their claims on anyone they can find may be liable - happens in many countries now. Anyone wants my dummies guide to domestic security - ask A very intelligent post if I may say Mick =D> =D> =D> =D> and helpful to I'm sure Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest downsarf Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 Totally agree mick but to turn the key cutting business away without knowing the full picture of the customers security and policy requirements doesnt make sense.What if the same person advised a bs lock would be fine but because of the persons location the insurance companiy is insisting on extra security as well as a bs lock ? Now where does that person stand who gave the advice ? In this day and age it or lawyers those good intentions could come back to bite. Leave the security issues to locksmiths who have visited the premises and seen the policy is my opinion,cut the keys advise they ask a locksmith and be done with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Friend Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 The answer is not to talk to the customer about the lock, see no evil hear no evil I must say we cut 500 keys a day and to question a customer would have added a day to each day. each to his/her own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 If a customer comes in for a key cut, I cut it. If a customer comes in and asks advice, I give it. Its nothing to do with ethics, If your asked to do a job, you do it, if your asked an opinion on the job, you give it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hibsjo(SCO) Posted November 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 You are all correct in what you say(Mick we are not worthy of having you on this forum =D> ) cut the keys no problem but when the customer says they are for a BS lock which he has purchased for insurance purposes I am compelled to tell him he has been sold wrong product. carry on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 when the customer says they are for a BS lock which he has purchased for insurance purposes I am compelled to tell him he has been sold wrong product. carry on! In that case I would tell him. If a customer comes in with his "Rolex" for repair and its fake. I make a point of telling them, if they refute it, I refuse the job If they agree but still want the repair, I make a point of writing "Fake Rolex" on their guarantee. Its a similar situation.... Or is it.....LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Friend Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 I dont think there is an answer There are now thousands of Locksmiths many are 'qualified' after two days training, some as much as 3 days - do they have a clue about minimum standards? well as much as my dog. How about these guys that turn up and muller a door because -its not possible to pick! Same goes for the hardware shop that only stock cheap locks and will flog anything to get a sale. In another thread we are talking about lost tickets - and whilst I don't want to see a list of disclaimers in any shop - maybe some thought on a small disclaimer, we used to have one worded 'We reserve the right to point out any flaws in the product you have asked us to repair, or key to cut - we reserve the right to mark the repair or copy that we have Advised you' I agree if you are a shoe repair shop and cut keys I would not expect you to have specific security knowledge - if your a locksmith as well then I would expect you to advise accordingly. Now about this government Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 I agree if you are a shoe repair shop and cut keys I would not expect you to have specific security knowledge - if your a locksmith as well then I would expect you to advise accordingly. Now about this government Let me guess, your a locksmith, locksmith and a locksmith..lol you may be supprised to learn that many Shoe repairers have forgotten more than alot of the "new generation locksmiths" will ever know. Because we have built up a knowledge through many years expirience in the trade. (PS that wasn't a dig at your knowledge as a locksmith, because I don't know you) like you don't know every shoe repairer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Friend Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 I wasn't having a dig and after 40 years as a locksmith, Chairman of both the MLA and Sold Secure, Now committee member of ICL and Editor of 'The Locksmith' Author of 'The encyclopaedia for locksmiths' co-author of the MLA/ABI guidlines for the MINIMUM security of domestic property - I suspect I know a thing or two about locksmiths, the locksmithing industry and key cutting - I know F all about shoes. But a cobbler telling a customer how to open a safe on the phone would be as rediculous as me offering to resole a pair of slippers. I have also had to sort out many, many cock ups caused by the old style shoe repairer cutting inappropriate keys on the wrong blanks and having to open, houses, cars and safes for them. Likewise you have had to replace many heels from locksmiths getting it the wrong way round I suspect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 I wasn't having a dig and after 40 years as a locksmith, Chairman of both the MLA and Sold Secure, Now committee member of ICL and Editor of 'The Locksmith' Author of 'The encyclopaedia for locksmiths' co-author of the MLA/ABI guidlines for the MINIMUM security of domestic property - I suspect I know a thing or two about locksmiths, the locksmithing industry and key cutting - Fair play =D> But a cobbler telling a customer how to open a safe on the phone would be as rediculous as me offering to resole a pair of slippers. Not if the "shoe repairer" has a good knowledge in that field, just cus you repair shoes, doesn't mean you know F**k all about owt else. Theres nothing wrong with being a multi service centre, if the services you offer are done to a decent standard. I have also had to sort out many, many cock ups caused by the old style shoe repairer cutting inappropriate keys whats that got to do with "shoe repairers" It was the Key cutter at fault....not the shoe repairer. I know a guy who runs a locksmith school, charges £1000 for a two day course, and he's a joke, and all his little students walk away thinking they are locksmiths. there should be ledgistration in place IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Friend Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 I agree about the training its criminal as for the rest we can debate all day long its a no win situation Mick xxxxxxxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 I agree about the training its criminalas for the rest we can debate all day long its a no win situation Mick xxxxxxxx LOL Mick... I agree xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Did I mention I was Chairman of the Argumentative society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Friend Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 Love it a good debate is the way to do it no nastyness just speak from the hip. xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 I never understood that saying, "speak from the hip" I have a big mouth, I like to use. hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Friend Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 Now some call you a big ARSE!!!!!! 40 -30 advantage locksmith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobblers Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 Did I mention I was Chairman of the Argumentative society. Hahahahahahaha Is there any point in telling you you're not or will that cause an argument? Rick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 Did I mention I was Chairman of the Argumentative society. Hahahahahahaha Is there any point in telling you you're not or will that cause an argument? Rick. Hi Rick................I am, you know it man....lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaloti Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 Just a quick question how do you know his insurance states a bs lock must be fitted ?Some policies allow a 5 lever lock as long as two rack bolts etc are fitted.I read a policy just the other day for a customer who had concerns on his security and the insurance implications.Basically he was covered to their specification as the policy required even though he only had a 5 lever lock fitted. Advise he should check his policy on the lock and cut the keys if he wants them cut but you are in no position to advise anymore without looking at the individual policy as they all vary somewhat. Point taken, my mistake but the question was about ethics and that was the jist of my answer. I dont and wont mug my punters off, knowingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest downsarf Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Id be quite happy to advise on their shoe repairs mick even though im a locksmith (depending on who you speak to). Suppose its because i used to be a shoerepairer which believe it or not is where i learnt how to make keys to locks a skill many locksmiths seem to lack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Id be quite happy to advise on their shoe repairs mick even though im a locksmith (depending on who you speak to). Suppose its because i used to be a shoerepairer which believe it or not is where i learnt how to make keys to locks a skill many locksmiths seem to lack. =D> =D> =D> =D> The multi service centres are by far the best way to learn and gain expirience with all types of locks, and key recognition. Two day courses with any locksmith school is not enough..... In my opinion, a shoe repairer/key cutter with a few years expirience behind him, would make a fair more accumplished locksmith (with training) than someone with NO knowledge going into locksmith school. I've seen it many times. And thats not knocking all locksmith schools, its just that you can't install expirience in a few day courses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hibsjo(SCO) Posted November 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 i konker carry on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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