ironplanet uk900 Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 the real tradesmen had speed ,and control todays repairers would get dizzy watching them ....= That may be the case in Australia Maurice, but not here in the uk. Speed aint got nowt to do with being a good repairer, apart from turning over more money. Its the end product that counts, not how quick you did it. Don't know what you mean about control Tell me what repairers were so good at in the 50's that todays Top repairers can't emulate..... apart from clumping, awfull grafts and a million rivets in the waist. It doesn't matter how you dress it up, rivets in the waist does damage the shoe....period. So therefore it isn't a good repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 but the best of yesteryear would leave todays best for dead that stuff about thick clunky soles and soles on top of soles they were the butchers the real tradesmen had speed ,and control todays repairers would get dizzy watching them ....i True in part only Maurice, All competition repairs of yesteryear were clumped on top and riveted with brass rivets, incorporating a picture done also in brass rivets with an infill of colour into each section, superb work that could not be matched today (well I wont be doing them anyway ) The part that is incorrect is that today repairers could not match them. I have come through both disciplines and todays fastest movers would leave the tradesmen of yesteryear rooted on the spot, due to better equipment easier materials to work with and faster adhesives. The UK operatives in the city centre shops come straight out of "Grease Lightning" I and all the others of yesteryear could not cope with the multi-tasking that has to be done in shops that are offering Shoe repairs/Key Cutting/ Engraving/ Watch Repairs/ etc, all those years ago most just had 1 job to do either Benching , finishing or Operating the Stitcher. Yes they got to work very fast at that 1 job but they would not entertain multi-tasking, the Boot & Shoe Operatives Union would not allow it as wages were governed by the particular skill in each section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest maurice Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 btw this is an interesting topic have a look at a quality handmade shoe many of these were made in repair shops ...my grandfather had a shop with maybe 5 repairers while he handmade shoes this was the top notch repairer im speaking of and make no misstake he was a repairer he repaired for his best customers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Secondly riveting through a "Wooden" Shank will only split it lengthways and cause no real damage, other than splitting it lengthways I always look at the condition of a shank & if damaged in any way (including being nailed through in previous repairs ) I replace it Hugh be do, be do! Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Quite right to Lee, I would expect it of a professional like yourself, but, what if I replaced a Shank with not a one piece Shank but one made of several sections, each moving differently against on another in a sort of sideways lamination. Far more damage is done by grafting a new sole to a waist that has been cut (or scoured ) to the wrong angle and position. Very few know tyhe technicalities of the Waist graft position. The mathmatical law of leverage comes into play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 The mathmatical law of leverage comes into play. I once watched a program on air traffic accidents, one plane had a section from its tail repaired & this was riveted in place with a single line of rivets. Over years the section had flexed back & forth on the rivets until the metal fatigued and snapped along the line of repair. During the program they demonstrated how two lines of rivets stopped this stress point and would have stopped the catastrophic failing that lead to the plane crash. Admitted Cobblering’s slightly different, but if your going nail anything at a point of potential movement be it dodgy sole grafts or other repairs, make sure you put in two rows of tacks nails or rivets, it will help the strength of the repair by reducing movement. Its another mathematical & physical law of leverage….. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Nice pair of gents shoes, came in this morning. Customer isn't very happy at all. He had them repaired 5 weeks ago at a local Independant. The customer wants me to glue them I explained that the sole had been attached way too short on the waist, and that the graft was also too short, and told him that nails were never going to hold down that job, and if the graft was done to a better standard there wouldn't have been any need for nails. I explained the proper way to repair them in detail, and that the job would be guarenteed untill the materials were worn out. He went for it, and I've been rebuilding them this afternoon. The guy who repaired them is in his 70's and been in the trade all his life The customers paid almost double for my repair, but as I said to him, You won't be bringing them back in 5 weeks. You have paid for a job that is fit for the purpose it was intended for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 I do just Lee on my own shoes (or did). Better still glue em and nail em. I wonder how long the Tail on the aircraft would have "lasted" if glued. (I dont think I would have been on it!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
x minit uk Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 I thought Hugh had retired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 I wonder how long the Tail on the aircraft would have "lasted" if glued. (I dont think I would have been on it!!!) Off Topic & the wrong forum http://www.aircraft-photos.net/forum/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 I still have my Shotgun and Licence xminit and anymore wisecracks like that and you will be X everthing Nice job that PlanetUK900 but why Xminit did you have to re-post all the pictures, we saw them in the first place, I thought my eyes had gone again, wheres me shotgun. And, it dont matter how long yer have been it der trade, if yer dont know after 5 years how to do a proper job then change trades is what I say, there is always room for improvement but that job should have been on display in the museum in Northampton as how not to do shoe repairs. Just everything is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 that job should have been on display in the museum in Northampton as how not to do shoe repairs. Just everything is wrong. I agree with that, But I'm seeing it on a regular basis here. I thought it was apt for the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 To be honest I have seen a great deal like that over the years and thought it was now the norm for everyone to butcher them. Seen many done like that to save on material usage by putting a smaller sole on to save money, or so they thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 To be honest I have seen a great deal like that over the years and thought it was now the norm for everyone to butcher them. Well thats only what I was saying. It was only the norm for repairers yesteryear to clump rivet & bad graft, If they even tried to graft them in those days. I agree you do see a fair bit of "coming away at the waist" repairs. and funnily enough its always the ones that have been nailed. because the repaier knows it aint going to stay put. so they think nails will be the answer. No need for nails on a good graft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Rather it's always the ones with the too short sole that end up like the one in the photos. Probably any nailing has been done as a make do method of re-attatching the waist after the customer took them back once to complain. Yes I agree that there were many problems in earlier years due to the Clump & Iron Rivet brigade. We have moved a significant distance in appearance and the technical output of the half sole job, but no matter what era there will always be those who think that this type of repair is satisfactory and unfortunately it brings the trade into disrepute. Thank the Lord we still have a few "Just Men" (and Ladies) who can salvage and cobble their way out of a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 I agree Hugh. What amazes me, Is how many members will "play" the word assoiation game on a Shoe Repair forum. But can't air views on what the forum is all about. Sad really Its far more interesting chatting about the technical side of repairing than playing a daft game...........perhaps they have no technical idea carry on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobblers Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 that's a terrible repair did he only have size 9 soles in stock or summat? thinking about it, i use waist nails on my soles not because i think they may come away or they may need them but because that's the way i was taught and i've never really thought about it until now. rick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 that's a terrible repair did he only have size 9 soles in stock or summat? thinking about it, i use waist nails on my soles not because i think they may come away or they may need them but because that's the way i was taught and i've never really thought about it until now. rick. I was taught that way also Rick, when I was 15. If you think about it, The nail goes through the sole, into a cavity or soft cork filled area, also hits the shank, some enter the welted area enter the playrib before going through the insole and hitting the last so as to flatten the end of the rivet. Causing damage all the way. When the next repairer removes the nails this causes more damage as the bent over nail has formed a barb. So whats the point of using them if a good graft technique is all thats required. I honestly can't remember anyone bringing back one of our repairs that have come away at the waist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 here's how I do my grafts http://www.shoerepairer.info/bb/viewtopic.php?p=26676 Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobblers Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 well, in light of this cracking topic i'm gonna stop nailing mine at the waists to see if my grafts are good enough to hold, i'll let you know if i come unstuck. (no pun intended) good tutorial that Lee, very similar to the way we do ours except i don't actually cut into the original sole to form the graft, i chamfer the top sole down to paper thin at it's joining edge and get the rest of the graft as near as dammit as i found that when i created a butt jointed graft that a slight gap sometimes appeared when the shoe was flexed. anyway, a cracking topic as i said, subjects like this make for great debate and i'm fairly certain a lot of us can pick up new thoughts or ways of improving our own work rick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 i too was also taught to nail the waist but haven't done it like that for years i double coat all my leather soles and don't have any problems with the waist coming away so i'm with UK on the not nailing the waists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 well, in light of this cracking topic i'm gonna stop nailing mine at the waists to see if my grafts are good enough to hold, i'll let you know if i come unstuck. (no pun intended) good tutorial that Lee, very similar to the way we do ours except i don't actually cut into the original sole to form the graft, i chamfer the top sole down to paper thin at it's joining edge and get the rest of the graft as near as dammit as i found that when i created a butt jointed graft that a slight gap sometimes appeared when the shoe was flexed. anyway, a cracking topic as i said, subjects like this make for great debate and i'm fairly certain a lot of us can pick up new thoughts or ways of improving our own work rick. Good post that Rick, Without wanting to sound patronising, I think as well as giving a hell of a lot to the forum, you have also taken a lot on board. As you have said in the past you have learnt most of your repairing yourself and never claimed to be the greatest...... But I wouldn't mind betting you've become a damn good repairer over the last couple of years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobblers Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 gee, cheers mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Developed into a good Cabinet maker too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
x minit uk Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 He's pretty good at the word assoiation game to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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