Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 : Best laugh I've had since joining the Forum, well done Keith. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Did you never get to use a Knife then. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithm Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Hugh, you'r obviously on a wind up today and are very bored. As far as extraction goes, you seem to know a lot about machines that you have never used or seen or tested, but should you ? However Hugh, should you chose to come out, you have an open invitation to see the latest technology in action at our Factory. The main reason Churches have not invested in NEW plant is down to budgets and naff all to do with modern equivalants of old dinasours. Churches require width and different speeds for thier bottom finishing which is why they keep the oldens going. There are a number of alternatives availble for them should they decide to kill off the dinasours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Garbage, that statement from you Hugh undermines many independant repairers out there Making sweeping statements like that can be very dangerous! I remember when I was repairing and I used to get told by so called 'quality old boys' that their work was the best and all us youngsters could never achieve their quality. Christ, most of them left a step on the waist you could jump off and about 15 tingles across it Don't get me started.................................. I must say I agree with Keith 100% on all aspects of this post, even down to the old repairers, clumpers & and a zillion tingles acroos the waist, wrecking the shoe for the next repair. I did mention this some time ago, and if I remember you agreed with me Hugh. thats not knocking your repair skills Hugh, I wouldn't, I believe you are an exceptional repairer. But I would defy you to make a fool out of my 20 year old sons work, He will do as good a job as anyone on this planet with a leather 1/2 sole and heel, he makes em look like through soles. I can't believe the finishing machine could make so much difference. My maine concerns if I chop my finisher in would be, 1, good extraction 2, Good power to cope with all todays Units. 3, smooth running, rough & smooth bands 4' quality trimmers & Mini band 5, Mops & brushes (my preference) 6, And not to be orange If you can't make a job to match anyone else then its the operater. As far as Irons go, if you use a good quality leather soles you don't need to use irons to get a good finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted February 23, 2007 Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Ah, but the dinosaurs are doing a better job and it aint just Church's is it. I could have named dozens but they have gone because the British public want cheaper footwear. The reference to 100/200/500 machines ws not for the dust extraction facilities Keith but the ability to produce a better finish, a quality job as near as possible to the manufacturing finish. Your company may have the latest all bells, all whistling dust bags and suction capabilities but, does it have aheated iron, does it have a bottom scourer, does it have a full set of bottom finishing mops/brushes to enable a finish to match any manufacturer. I aint disputing the fact that your machine is not the best there is available and as far as volume/ quantity is concerned it will produce a much faster turnaround time for the customers shoes. I certainly would not like to use one of the old machines to scour waists on but hey we did not use them for that we used a knife and a surform plane, very little had to be scoured off as we were very competant with knives, so much so that there had to be no excess material to scour off, unlike today when you have to produce a machine that has to scour it all off because most can not use a knife properly, that is not to say thay are not as skilled, just skilled in different ways. And if you think you can produce waist on a modern "Standard" machine better than some can do with knives and old finishers then you aint seen the proper results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 if you think you can produce waist on a modern "Standard" machine better than some can do with knives and old finishers then you aint seen the proper results. Most of the results I have seen by these guys is very poor, Butchery in most cases. Thats not to say all, but most of what I've seen, and I've seen alot over 29 years. theres always an exception to the rule. (HUGH) for one People expect better quality repairs these days. As I have said in a previous post, can't remember were ..........ascaps probably deleted it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 What guys are you talking about UK? I'm not talking about the average repairer but the ones who are or were at the very top of the tree of Cobble-Lee-Gook . You are Quite correct in saying that the old guys produced waists that did not compare with the finer waists of today(on average as a general commercial job). Dont forget that we older unfrtunate dust laden degenerates had to rivet our waists, the only glue available was Latex ( for the benefit of those who do not know what Latex adhesive is, it is a form of Copydex) The only way to ensure that the waists did not break from the rivets was to have the waist about one third to one quarter the thickness of the sole. But Hey, but this was not the way of competitions. Interesting topic this if folk can steer clear of hysteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 There are quite a few, alot of them gone now. O by the way I don't do commercial work....High class quality workmanship on a standard power unit I must be good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auto Key Wizard Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 The only way to ensure that the waists did not break from the rivets was to have the waist about one third to one quarter the thickness of the sole. Have you ever used wooden pegs in the waist?, can make a smart job if done well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 Used a wooden pegging machine similiar to an autosoler, came from Germany. Autosoler, best machine ever invented. You had to be profficiant to use the wooden peg technique. Vor sprung peg technique You must be older than Methusela Tel UK, by commercial work I meant normal customer stuff, not Trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 The only way to ensure that the waists did not break from the rivets was to have the waist about one third to one quarter the thickness of the sole. Have you ever used wooden pegs in the waist?, can make a smart job if done well Remember the cowboy boots I did ages ago, and put the pics up. I think I used wood pegs in them. can't find the post though. If I remember correctly it was a memorable post ascaps probly deleted that aswell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 UK, by commercial work I meant normal customer stuff, not Trade. So did I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithm Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 Hugh, we do not have heated irons on modern machines, they are not required as they have no or little baring on the finished job. As far as bottom scourers and mops/brushes are concerned, you can have any combination you require, simple as that! I have seen many repairs done on many different machines and I don't believe any of the finishing has much to do with the machine. Like a chef, you can have the best produce available, but you can easily feck up the result due to incompetence Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 Hugh, we do not have heated irons on modern machines, they are not required as they have no or little baring on the finished job. I don't believe any of the finishing has much to do with the machine. Keith Well that's put you well down my list Keith. I agree that there is very little need for them and if i was opening a shop I would not give 2 toss's if a machine had not a heated iron or bottom scourer or even bottom finishing brushes. Todays customer will accept work that you would have thrown back as unacceptable years ago. Very many Shoe Repairers both from the Independant and in paticular the Multiples have very little idea of how to acheive perfection, it can't be done on modern machines unless there are fundamental devices, which there are not. Niether have they been taught how to achieve that perfection. I'm fortunate enough to have seen the worst, the indifferent and the best during the time I was alive The Worst and the Indifferent could come out those 2 statements of yours in the order they were posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 I must say Hugh, most of those comments are not true. I believe alot of the work done today would skin and heel most of the old guys. I think some of the worst shoe repairs came from your era, (not you personally) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 Todays customer will accept work that you would have thrown back as unacceptable years ago. Very many Shoe Repairers both from the Independant and in paticular the Multiples have very little idea of how to acheive perfection, it can't be done on modern machines unless there are fundamental devices, which there are not. Niether have they been taught how to achieve that perfection. I'm fortunate enough to have seen the worst, the indifferent and the best during the time I was alive The Worst and the Indifferent could come out those 2 statements of yours in the order they were posted. I'm not old enough to comment on the quality of shoe repairing standards, of past generations... ...so out of pure interest I would like to know in what way do todays repairers not live up to those of say for example the 1950's? Do you have any specific examples/evidence? I think it's unfair to rubbish the majority of current shoe repairers without explaining how you came to this conclusion tbh. Any member of the general public who reads your post won't exactly be filled with confidence in our trade IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Good post Piggy, note that I said the majority of repairers, in saying that I fefer directly to the quality of the finish not the actual technical repair. The physical repair of earlier years tended to be rather "clumpy" and unyielding as wear factors were the priority due to the poor wage structure of the masses. God forbid that my beautifull shoes would end up having a thick riveted waist with the flexibility of an quarter plate sheet of steel. Todays repairers produce a repair that is far more presentable than of yesteryear. You personally, even though in your younger years will be capable of turning out a better more wearable job on todays machines than I was able to do as a master craftsman 40/50 years ago. On saying that though, if you were given the leather that we had to work with you probably would make a very big mess of the job (note I say probably not would). The overall finish though is deplorable, soft Yankee type waxes that give very little gloss compared to Astral and Carnuba wax, cold Irons if ironed at all. Bottom finishing is none existant apart from the bit of polish on the tannery produced finish or colour spray to cover the imperfections of the compressed dust soles. Years ago you would have seen your reflection in the heel finish and the sole bottoms. Hope that has painted a clearer picture for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithm Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Well Hugh, you like everyone else here is entitled to their opinion. however, I doubt wether you have seen anyone's work on this site other than pictures or tutorials! I will stick with my original statement and say that a machine does not make a finisher A well specified machine, with some extra tooling can make a difference. But, I believe that finishing is an art in itself. The skill level and experience is what counts, along with a concience and a very good eye for detail. Lets face it, it's the customer that drives the repairers quality. If I carry out a crap repair and the customer exepts it, that repair will set the standard. However, if the customer complains, it may force my standards higher and therefore raise the quality of my repairs. Just my opinion Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 I doubt wether you have seen anyone's work on this site other than pictures or tutorials! I aint talking of work done by members on this site Keith, i am talking about national standards. Whenever the wife and I go out for the day or longer I always make a point of visiting the local repairer and taking note of the standards. (yeh I know i'm a sad bas...d) I will stick with my original statement and say that a machine does not make a finisher A well specified machine, with some extra tooling can make a difference. But, I believe that finishing is an art in itself. The skill level and experience is what counts, along with a concience and a very good eye for detail. Lets face it, it's the customer that drives the repairers quality. If I carry out a crap repair and the customer exepts it, that repair will set the standard. However, if the customer complains, it may force my standards higher and therefore raise the quality of my repairs. Just my opinion Keith The rest is a true fact but the machine do not come with the extra tooling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithm Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Hugh, how do you know 'THE' machine comes with NO extra tooling? You have never asked the question? There are many tooling options available depending on what machines you're looking at buying and your budget!! You really should check the detail before you post Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 In part you have solved the problem of tha poorer standard of finish. You say that options are available and I dont doubt you for one minute. These options come at a heavy price do they not? So, you have at your fingertips the information to repudiate my claims outright. Give us the percentage of machines sold during the last 5 years that were equiped with all or most of these extras that would enable the operator to match the finish of a Whitfield Hodgson & Brough 100, or a Whitfield Whylie as the case may have been, cant remember. My bet is that there were virtually zero sales of the full set of extras, granted they may be available but as they are not purchased then the machine cant produce the finish unless done by Heated Hand Irons etc. You have mentioned on previous occasions that I am not aware of certain criteria to do with Engineering / your products / your stock/ and now the extras available, saying that I should ask the question. Keith you need to give me a bit more credit for knowing a little more than you think I do. I do keep abreast of the situation within the trade on a daily basis, I have far too many contacts to count and it is through this network Internationally that I can glean information from to enable a post. I dont always seek advice and quite often fall flat on my face in the dog poo, but I also learn from that experience as one is never too old to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 Cheers for your thoughts Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petercoulson Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 confuscius say if you fall face down in dog poo do it in icy weather when is solid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted March 9, 2007 Report Share Posted March 9, 2007 confuscius say if you fall face down in dog poo do it in icy weather when is solid I like that one Peter, right on my wavelength and talking of electrons, Dean, why have you changed from The Electric Pig, I like that name it's unusual, mind you, with a name like Dynamo you must be the Current Live Wire on the Circuit Taken a shine to you, you can hold your own in an argument, we need more debaters rather than one liners, though they do feed the fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithm Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Hugh, if you are as abreast of the machinery situation as you claim, you would not make the statements that you have. You play this continual game with your identity that just confuses everyone,therefore, it explains or deserves no more credit than anyone else really! At this moment in time, your many qualifications are purely cyberspace rhetoric as far as I am concerned. The fact that the customer has a choice is what is important. He can then specify the tooling he requires in order to achieve the level of finish required for his business. If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me! Current retail demands dictate that the modern outlet needs compact machines. Therefore, logic tells you that there has to be compromise. Size is important. With your apparent experience Hugh, I should not need to explain that. As far as giving you credit is concerned, I do, yet still I smell dog poo Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 All true Keith and I have no qualifications, I do not know what your current stock is as I am not that up to date, I have to ask others. As for my identity my name is Robin of Locksley and I live in Sherwood Forest Nottingham, my hobbies are Archery and aiding the poor and yes I do suffer from delusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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