Identifying old Westland garage door key

[mandrake]

Hi,

I have an old Westland Engineers garage door key I'm trying to decode (they must have been knocking out garage doors between making helicopters). It's cut on a HD 83P blank that suggests it's a Henderson R series. However, the pin spacing says otherwise. The door was fitted in the 60's. I've been trying to use Instacode to find it, but cannot find anything. The closest I can find is Regent 1001-1425 series, but the depths seem totally off on that.

Here's a picture of the key and meassurements taken with a pair of calipers.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Theo

 

[nxasdf]

I don't have access to my InstaCode at the moment but as useful as it can be, it's missing a lot of data for lesser known brands yet includes really obscure stuff too. A locksmith should be able to do you a copy of it easily if you just wanted one. If you're taking such an interest in the specifications, you should try quantising the values a bit and searching by that. For example, the spacing is typically uniform on pin tumbler keys with some rare exceptions, your spacing is probably something like 430, 690, 950, 1210, 1470 (a step size of 260). That's just a guess at the moment. InstaCode will likely give you some results if you use +/- 10 or 20 in the measurements.

Looking at the bitting, same story, they will be rounded to known values. This is where things get tricky from the photo, the cut 3 looks slightly shallower than cuts 4 and 5, but the difference (according to your measurements) would suggest it's 20/100 mm which is very small for a lock/key made in the 60s for something like a garage door lock. The residual material (the triangular mountain between each cut) is huge between cuts 3 and 4 as opposed to cuts 4 and 5 but probably because the cuts themselves are wider than position 3 and 4, could be a part of the design or could be a shitty copied key. If it was me, I would disassemble the lock, measure everything in there, and make a bunch of test keys to try out measurements, and keep it for future use (if InstaCode really doesn't have the specs). Failing that, you could buy some replacement locks, measure those and find similarities, or contact the manufacturer directly. Manufacturers tend not to give you much information stating that they don't keep records which is an absolute lie but I can't be arsed explaining what I need from manufacturers so I just work it out myself. Good luck.

[mandrake]

Hi Nxasdf,

I've taken your advice and dismantled the lock. A couple of the wafers where totally gummed up. The key I've got looks absolutely miles out, but was working because only some of the wafers were working correctly.

Here's a picture of the internals and the meassurements as best as I could get. The lock body was also marked with the code 124.

So the wafer meassurements (opposite direction to photo are):

1. 2.87mm
2. 3.15mm
3. 2.45mm
4. 3.10mm
5. 2.10mm

A key code of 124 for Lowe & Fletcher 1-400 gives a bitting of:

1. 1
2. 1
3. 3
4. 1
5. 3

Which could be plausible.

 

[Lock Stock]

Looking at the original key in the first  picture your cuts will be 21222. You shouldn’t be to precise with the measurements either, need to allow for ware and tear bearing in mind the age of handle. 

Also need to look at how the wafers work within the lock, always best to have a look in your hands with a blank before taking apart. Unfortunately you have measured the end of the wafers in the last picture, the contact point for the wafer will need to work against the spring tension.

A quick tip for next time, if you mark each wager with a pen so you know which order they sit it, you can also lay them over each over so you can see how many of each height you have in the combination. Will help going forward when searching for bitting.

[mandrake]

Thanks Lock Stock for the help. I've taken the meassurements from the correct side now (see attached):

1. 3.30mm
2. 2.93mm
3. 3.70mm
4. 3.09mm
5. 4.00mm

Here's a picture of the barrel as well. After a bit of googling it looks suspicously like Wilmot Breeden lock found in a lot of cars. This page has a load more info https://www.bobine.nl/jaguar/12-body/wilmot-breeden-union-locks-and-keys/. I think it must be an MRN or FA, although neither of those turn up results for the code 124.

I've contacted Weston Body Hardware to see if I can get a new barrel. The picture of the door and boot locks for the Jaguar in the link above look exactly the same. Failing that it would still be useful to try and get a key made up for the lock.

I'm guessing the bitting is:

1. 2
2. 3
3. 2
4. 3
5. 1

 

[nxasdf]

The measurements you've taken don't seem like they're matching the key bitting at all, even accounting for wear and tear it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Based on your original picture and measurements, the closest matching InstaCode card I found is 1639 (Keya) bitting 24222 (depths of 460, 570, 460, 460, 460) and spacing from 410 to 1410.

If you don't mind me asking, what is your actual objective? As I said, a locksmith will cut you a key in just a few seconds, what are you trying to achieve exactly? Are you trying to get a perfectly cut key to code or something? I like taking an unhealthy interest in measuring, organising, comparing data, and can usuallly figure things out with enough time, just wondered what your story is, that's all. Where abouts are you based? I could take some measurements of my own.

[grahamparker]

This thread has really amused me, some excellent detailed questions and answers, but it should take no more than 10 minutes to strip clean and cut a key by eye for this lock.

[nxasdf]

We all have different areas of expertise. He never once mentioned about wanting an extra key despite me saying a locksmith could duplicate it twice, or that there was a problem with his lock or key. His objective sounds like he wanted to decode it to the manufacturer specifications probably out of curiosity. It sounds like someone taking a deeper interest in finding out accurate information instead of being someone like one of those annoying people who cut every single open profile on universal blanks (vomit). We need more people who like to get technical.

[mandrake]

Thanks everyone for your input. My original goal was to get a key cut that was done from a code so that I could get a key without all of the wear on it, and if I lose it I can get another one made easily.

I got some keys ordered and they arrived very quickly, but sadly they didn't work. Rather than getting into a game of someone sending more keys, and more keys not working which doesn't seem that great for the locksmith or for me I thought I'd try and take some meassurements and figure out exactly what I need to ask for.

It's been a bit of a journey since! It looks like meassurements from my key are worthless, so I looked in the lock. Then it turns out my 'original' key only works because half of the wafers were jammed. It also transpires these locks seem to have originated from car locks (I never knew my garage door shared so much heritage with the Jaguar XK 140 FHC), and that classic car owners seem to face a similar predicament with old worn locks.

I appreciate the easiest thing to do is just get someone to copy the key on a normal machine, and remove the previously jammed wafers. However, being the nerd I am I'd like to get to the point where I can get keys cut easily in the future from a code, and a reliable lock without messing too much with the garage door. I know these locks offer very little security, but the door also offers very little security with the way it latches anyway.