Key ID and bitting information request

[Gary74]

Hello chaps,
I have been unable to find the bitting for UNL5 type keys in instacodelive. I have tried all of the other names for this type of key on both the sks and silca websites (links and some of those identifiers below). The key I have is an Ilco Orion UNL5 

https://www.sks.co.uk/jma-universal-cylinder-key-blank-15329
https://thecatalogue.silca.biz/silca/key/UL050

Standard: 1609, CB Hook: 5847, RST: 714ULR, Standard: 950, Keyprint: DG13K, HD Hook: H0521, HD Hook: H521, DL: L61Y, Errebi: U5D, Silca: UL 050, HD: UL1, CEA: UN3, KL: UN5D, Orion: UNL5, Ilco: WA91WL

1: Why am I not able to find this key in instacodelive?
2: Can someone inform of or direct me to the bitting for this key? I'm looking for the standard information, blade width, cut heights, cut distances from shoulder and cut angle.

3: I also have a key that I have been unable to ID (pictures below). I have searched around but none of the suggestions have bitting that matches the values I've measured with calipers.

Appreciate any help, thanks.

 

 

[Count Muppet]

UL1 is not a real key.

its a universal to cover a range of others.

you shouldn’t find anything for it

[Gary74]

OK thank you for that. What defines the bitting for the UNL5 key that I have? 

[Count Muppet]

You’ll will need to find the right blank for it.

looks like it could be a HD N9CS

[kobblers]

We use 1A or UL1 for these.

 

Rick.

[Gary74]

Thanks @Count Muppet. Forgive my ignorance I'm new to the trade, where can I read about universal blanks?
Is a universal blank a blank that can fit into technically different locks that are similar to each other?
Is there a reference of which universal blanks can be used for which real key types?
If you were handed a cut universal key and needed to identify which real key it actually was how would you do that?
If I understand correctly the procedure would be to look at the list of real keys that universal blank can be used for then caliper the cuts and compare to the bitting for each of those real key types?
I understand you could just make a direct copy but I'd still like to know to make sure that I understand.

Thanks @kobblers do you mean you use 1A or UL1 for the Patons key or for the UNL5 key I have?

[David C]

1. SRF

2. Yes

3. No

4. Easier to look at the lock

5. What list?

6. You can use UL1 for both

[kobblers]

Either

Rick.

[Gary74]

Q: If you were handed a cut universal key and needed to identify which real key it actually was how would you do that?
@David C A: Easier to look at the lock

1: What would you look at on the lock to determine which real key it was?

2: When we say "real key" do we mean that not just the profile is slightly different, but that the bitting specification is different too, e.g. different cut heights, cut angles and cut spacing?
3: Is it possible to go from a universal back to a original key by measuring the cut heights and cut spacing?
4: Is this the scenario above where you would determine the real key by looking at the lock then use instacode to get the bitting?

I was looking for a list of which key blanks to stock and found this post with a great reply from @kobblers https://shoerepairer.info/topic/14397-stocking-key-blanks/
I wanted to have a record of the bitting for the common keys in this list and make sure I could cut them on a digital machine. The list includes WMS8 which is also called AVC1. I cannot find the bitting for this key or any of the synonyms of this this key in instacode. I looked in the silca catalogue and it does not have a silca card number.

5: Is this key in instacode and if so what am I doing wrong in terms of finding the bitting for this key in instacode?
6: Why does this key not have a silca card number?
7: Does this mean I could not cut this key using the cut by card option on a digital silca machine?

For the Patons key I posted above I looked at HD N9CS (thanks @Count Muppet)
8: I'd like to learn, what visually suggests the key is a HD N9CS

The measured cut heights for the key are (bow to tip):
    6.15, 6.18, 5.12, 6.67, 5.67
The nominal heights according to instacode (card 296, cuts 5, ISN 183) are:
    3.80, 4.45, 5.10, 5.75, 6.40, 7.05, 7.70

This doesn't seem like a great agreement to me but obviously I'm just learning

9: Do these measurements confirm that the key is a HD N9CS?
10: If not which key might it be?

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions.

[grahamparker]

1, The make. (often you can tell from the logo if there isn't any name) but i have 40 years of knowledge behind me.

2, The original key that came with the lock rather than a copy.

3, yes with the right tools (Unocode 399) or any machine that will decode then allow you to see the difference from original measurements of manufacturer.

4, Possibly but why waste time ? Just cut the damned key.

5, Wasting time if a copy works just duplicate it.

6, Ask the manufacturers Silca only use what is made available to them by manufacturers.

7, No, even without a card the Unocode 399/Pro etc will decode and allow you to make an exact copy.

8, Experience

9, NO

10, Again Experience and trial and error or use a great forum as someone has possibly come up with a solution.

You are completly over thinking key cutting just make sure your machine has a new sharp cutter and is set up correctly.

Use a vernier caliper (Most important key cutting tool).

Buy in some locks to practice on this will help when setting up your machine.