Silca R4 triax jaw, Kaba 20

[Lock Stock]

Just got the R4 tilting jaw as I've got to 70x Kaba 20 keys.

I need to decode the keys but the machine seems to be reading the key wrong on the 45 degree. It reads between the over lap of both angles so reads both sides together as one side & then mirrors it again on the other side. Ive recalibrate the tower & jaw but doesn't change anything. It looks to me like it needs to move over a little before it reads the angle cuts. Unless it's me being stupid but I can't see where I've gone wrong.

 

It's not the end of the world to manually adjust the angles but not what I would expect especially barring in mind how old these are now.

[grahamparker]

Sounds like it may be the wrong card you are using, Ring Matt @ Silca and have a word. There are some mul-t-lock cards that are wrong if you go by blank selection option.

[Lock Stock]

I spoke to matt but he didn't know. He said try again but recalibrate but if should be right because it was so old now. He will have a look & get back to me.

 

There is only 1 card on Silca for Kaba 20.

 

I've looked again this morning, I can see the problem & can get round it, it's not me being stupid though. I just cant believe its never been sorted or adjusted properly to work.  

[grahamparker]

I recently purchased the Abus plus adapter for the unocode, but it didn't round of cuts 1,2 and 3 as it should so the keys would not work.

 

I rang and spoke to Lee who informed me the only way to do these using the adapter is to remove the shield and twist the key by hand as the machine is cutting the key.

 

Health and Safety would have a field day with that one. so it was immediately returned.

 

The only other way was to buy the rotating jaw, purchase the Idea or stick with the SKM6000 i already owned.

[Lock Stock]

I recently purchased the Abus plus adapter for the unocode, but it didn't round of cuts 1,2 and 3 as it should so the keys would not work.

 

I rang and spoke to Lee who informed me the only way to do these using the adapter is to remove the shield and twist the key by hand as the machine is cutting the key.

 

Health and Safety would have a field day with that one. so it was immediately returned.

 

The only other way was to buy the rotating jaw, purchase the Idea or stick with the SKM6000 i already owned.

 

Yer I know I have one of those as well, Its not as bad as it sounds.

 

I don't remove the shield though just in case it broken I just undo the right hand side (switch side) & lift the shield up but keep the switch closed so the machine thinks its closed then cut the keys.

 

You've got to really want to hurt your self or be looking a causing an accident to end up with issue if I'm honest.

 

 

Back to Kaba its Silca, now getting though these keys, even the screen instrution on the machine aren't 100%. If stop & serve a customer then come back to your keys, Its not always clear where you are with the angles. I can see mistakes happening if your not concentrating.

 

It just seems really weird that I've been doing Kaba now for only 30 keys in & I can see issues that aren't quite right but wouldn't take a lot to fix or address. It works but just expected it to be better.

 

This system is so old now I can't believe it not 100% perfect.

The people who do a lot of Kaba I thought they used Silca but maybe I'm wrong, I would like to know. 

[LockandKey]

Just got the R4 tilting jaw as I've got to 70x Kaba 20 keys.

I need to decode the keys but the machine seems to be reading the key wrong on the 45 degree. It reads between the over lap of both angles so reads both sides together as one side & then mirrors it again on the other side. Ive recalibrate the tower & jaw but doesn't change anything. It looks to me like it needs to move over a little before it reads the angle cuts. Unless it's me being stupid but I can't see where I've gone wrong.

 

It's not the end of the world to manually adjust the angles but not what I would expect especially barring in mind how old these are now.

If you want to send the original key - we can do it, it really helps if we can have a lock to work with - before we cut 70 keys.

We've cut lots of Kaba 20's - but we don't use Silca cards.

[derek]

Can you not cut them manually

[Lock Stock]

Thanks anyway but I cut them all fine, I just had to manually adjust the 45 degree cuts as it wouldn't decode the key properly. Instead of doing 3 cuts on one side & then 2 cuts on the other side it was putting 5 cuts on each side. I just expected the machine to decode properly without an issue & still can't believe it can't do that, that said I'm happy with the quality of the cutting.

[ponsaloti]

If you want to send the original key - we can do it, it really helps if we can have a lock to work with - before we cut 70 keys.

We've cut lots of Kaba 20's - but we don't use Silca cards.

pm sent

[Lock Stock]

If you want to send the original key - we can do it, it really helps if we can have a lock to work with - before we cut 70 keys.

We've cut lots of Kaba 20's - but we don't use Silca cards.

 

What machine do you use to cut them?

[LockandKey]

Can you not cut them manually

Yah ^^ you know... dimple keys are moving towards 9 depths on 2 or 3 tracks - side bars, side cuts etc.

 

This job needs ideally a lock to test them on when decoding,  makes a massive difference before you cut 70 keys. They can be cut manual - but having the lock makes it much easier.

 

Without the lock it's not something we would entertain for serveral reasons.

[ponsaloti]

^{Lock & key}

^{pm sent}

[Lock Stock]

 

Without the lock it's not something we would entertain for serveral reasons.

 

 

 

I can't get get the locks as the keys are for lifts in a airport, there is no way they would let me take the locks off site, or cut one & try it before cutting the rest. They would of have gone to someone else who would of cut them 70  keys as they wanted.

 

So you wouldn't cut 70 keys for this customer then? I find that hard to believe if your getting a Pro Tec machine turning away an order like this.

 

This job has already paid for the its self, The Jaw + Cutters for Kaba & Magnuim + the stock of both blanks + profit. I think I would of  been a fool not to cut them. 

 

Its not so bad to adjust an error when you can see where & why the machine decodes it wrong. The 45 degree angle cuts on this key are only passive pins, 1 depth & a maximum number of 11 possible cuts per side (6 on one side & 5 on the other). Key 1 only had a total of 2 angle pins in & key 2 had 5 angled pins in. This to me was a no brainier & I think anyone In my position would have done the job.

[LockandKey]

If you want to send an original key to me, we can send a copy back and your customer can test it.

Then we will do them all,

 

We won't 3rd party cut in quantity on a manual decode hoping it will work x70, it's common sense, especially if we don't have the lock to test on site.

 

I can show you many examples of BS/TS007/ISO9000 produced locks & key codes that have an electronic card - but don't work in the lock concerned, however with 70 cut keys we would just build the lock again if we made that mistake.

[Lock Stock]

 

We won't 3rd party cut in quantity on a manual decode hoping it will work x70, it's common sense,

 

however with 70 cut keys we would just build the lock again if we made that mistake.

 

I wasn't hopping they would work. I was just surprised on the inconsistency's of the reading on angle cuts, other than that was no problem with cutting the keys & was simple to adjust & took me all of 5 mins. I would expect a Silca jaw & cutter to do what it says on such an old system.

 

Since this I've very easily learnt how the cylinders work & can read these by eye without a problem. I won't have a problem decoding from a photo & cutting a key.

 

We both use the same machine to cut them anyway (Triax). I don't see why it comes across that I'm a chancer & your so much better. You might have 3 machines to my 1 but at the end of the day the key is cut to the same quality & no different. 

 

If you can read the keys manually, I don't get where the issue is or what's wrong with it.

[LockandKey]

I wasn't hopping they would work. I was just surprised on the inconsistency's of the reading on angle cuts, other than that was no problem with cutting the keys & was simple to adjust & took me all of 5 mins. I would expect a Silca jaw & cutter to do what it says on such an old system.

 

Since this I've very easily learnt how the cylinders work & can read these by eye without a problem. I won't have a problem decoding from a photo & cutting a key.

 

We both use the same machine to cut them anyway (Triax). I don't see why it comes across that I'm a chancer & your so much better. You might have 3 machines to my 1 but at the end of the day the key is cut to the same quality & no different. 

 

If you can read the keys manually, I don't get where the issue is or what's wrong with it.

My chief engineer (key room manager) has copied quite a few Kaba 20 keys for customers who can send us the lock and key - but they are a nightmare & well done to Kaba for making a 'bitch' key!

Having the same machine means very little, it's the knowledge of how the lock works that makes the difference & we build them - locks are not 'plug & play' even when dealing with mass produced Assa products, but we always get it sorted - I would not waste my key room's time decoding and replicating a Kaba 20 without the lock.

I strongly advise you pay Kaba to do it properly and move on, sometimes there are no short cuts and you have to pay the piper.

[Lock Stock]

So does that mean you can't read & cut these your self Rob?

 

You assume I'm not an experienced locksmith because this is a shoe repair forum, but your wrong.

 

In the time since the magnum keys I got wrong, I've learnt how to decode magnum from a picture & also since this topic I've done the same on  Kaba 8 & 20. The key is not that complicated nor that much of a bitch to cut though a little time consuming on single differs. If you did them your self instead of trying to shoot me down thinking you are better then you might understand what I was saying about the key. Kaba 20 was good a long time ago but now is old hat. Just to prove a point the next time you get a Kaba 20 key to cut. Send me a picture, I will cut you a key from it & post it to you. 

 

Maybe you should try & embrace this forum, go with the fact that no one knows everything. We can all learn from each other & sometimes that might be from someone who you thought knows less then you.

 

I admit I got that wrong at first with the Magnum keys & your were right I didn't understand how they were built or how you cut them on a Triax, but rather then get all uptight & pissed off with that. I went off & learnt how they worked. After that I got a big job for Kaba 20 keys which more then covered the cost of an R4 jaw. Now I now do fare amount of Kaba keys & Loads of magnum keys which I never expected to do or I would of brought this jaw years ago funny how things turn out. 

[Count Muppet]

Rob?? It's not helicopterrob under a different name is it?

[grahamparker]

Rob?? It's not helicopterrob under a different name isit?

 

 

OMG hope not.

[Lock Stock]

I might of got that wrong it could me Matt.

 

Anyway who this Helicopter Rob, sounds interesting 

[LockandKey]

I might of got that wrong it could me Matt.

 

Anyway who this Helicopter Rob, sounds interesting 

It's Mat actually - no idea where your 'angst' is coming from?

I enjoy sharing knowledge - but due to the scale of our business we are given & we drive new modifications or designs, so we can't cascade this in a public forum until the product owner releases it for general consumption.

Back to your Kaba 20 experience it's a basic locksmithing principle when cutting keys in quantity to a lock that you don't have the perfect official electronic card to suit, you ask for the lock to test & feel. To you the time invested in experimenting was worthwhile & profitable - to us that may not be the same case, we can do it - but not while we still have 300 other code keys to cut today.

You say you have 'mastered' Magnum and Superior codes - however there is a fundamental card error on Silca data for this platform (by accident from the Swiss design team before Assa bought it) but not corrected due to the everlasting battle between Assa & Silca, despite Assa being fully aware that the card is not the same as their factory version - leaving us and the customer in the middle.... 

Resulting in the C cut (snake) always looking different to the China CNC version - lay (space) position on CNC is 2 but Silca is 1 = causes certain lock codes to have very aggressive peaks & troughs on the snake/laser cut, this causes problems for the gate pins & sometimes the aftermarket keys will never work properly due to aggression of the C cut. So we just supply a new superior cylinder with extra keys.

Or the fact that Magnum code cards are only 98% accurate from the factory, Yale is 99.5% - then factor in the fabricators mixing up the cards & locks prior to fitting... the question is 'who sorts it out' when they are making 30,000 a week?

^^ Of course you figured this out yourself 

[Lock Stock]

I've not got a problem with you as you think. If you noticed I liked your comment & point about the MLA courses.

 

I just don't think I should be criticised for cutting these keys, especially when it turns out you don't cut them yourself. Your probably not sure what my issue was in the first place as you don't cut the key so don't see it being decoded.

 

I might be wrong but as far as I'm aware there is only 1 card for cutting these on Silca. I don't believe the "official electronic card" you mention you have exists. I think you use the same card as me.

 

I never said I've mastered Magnum. I said I learn't to how read these key from a photo & cut them.

 

I have noticed the difference in the way it cuts on the C axis & spoken to Silca about it. They said the step down is because of the details given to them from Millenco but the keys will still work. You clearly know a lot about these cylinders from your comments but at the end of the day, we can all talk a good talk but its still a shit cylinder & the moneys in the keys. I have no interest in servicing cheap cylinders like these so don't need to know any more other then reading keys & cutting keys. Your figures are all irrelevant anyway, can you prove them? stats show what you want them to say. Do I cut them & do they work that's the stat that matters.

 

Gary