Iain Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 I had a key in today, It was a Silca Universal (UL51 if i recall) It had the words 'DO NOT DUPLICATE' stamped into the key and also a telephone number. As it wasn't a restricted or patented key, I copied it. Was I right to do so? Anyone could start stamping their orders onto keys just so folk will return to them. Does a person have the right to stamp such a direction onto a key so widely available? I do hope I haven't broken any rules there. If it had been on a restricted/patented/copyrighted key then I would have adhered to the instructions, but to stamp it into a popular key like that seems strange. Opinions gratefully received. Iain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 perhaps a short phone call may have answered your question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Posted October 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Darn good idea! It wasn't until I cut the second key of the same that I noticed the number. Lesson learned I suppose. Iain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny King Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Heh if we can cut it we will, Don't care what it says on the key Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Heh if we can cut it we will, Don't care what it says on the key Me too! Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toofatbyfar Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 same as, and if i aint got the blank i do my best to source it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Posted October 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Here's me thinking i'd committed a crime! it seems a few of you have the same approach as we do. If the key is restricted, we will often try to obtain it and make a small profit just through ordering it. The only downside being some of them suppliers charge anywhere from £15 upwards! Say i'd called the number on the key and was told NOT to cut it. Is that legal? Again, can anyone just stamp a blank which is so widely available? We could stamp all ours and just expect our customers to return to us each time a new key is required. Maybe that chap is onto something! If I see the key again, i'll ring him and ask why the key can't be duplicated. Iain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Heh if we can cut it we will, Don't care what it says on the key thats a fair one. if youve got the key blank then its no longer a restricted section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lock N Safe Buddy Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Any key marked with "Do Not Duplicate" is done for a reason. NOTE "Do Not Duplicate" should not be confused with "Do Not Copy". We stamp keys "Do not Duplicate" if there has been a problem with cutting from non-original samples due to lack of accuracy (mult-generation). We always decode any sample marked "DND" in order to produce a spot on "original" with no return problems. If a cutter does duplicate one of these from sample he will probably produce a bad copy. You are getting thinking the key may be somehow copy protected, but this is not always the case. eg all Best & Arrow IC keys are marked "DND" and if you do you will soon wish you hadnt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Any key marked with "Do Not Duplicate" is done for a reason. NOTE "Do Not Duplicate" should not be confused with "Do Not Copy". We stamp keys "Do not Duplicate" if there has been a problem with cutting from non-original samples due to lack of accuracy (mult-generation). We always decode any sample marked "DND" in order to produce a spot on "original" with no return problems. If a cutter does duplicate one of these from sample he will probably produce a bad copy. You are getting thinking the key may be somehow copy protected, but this is not always the case. eg all Best & Arrow IC keys are marked "DND" and if you do you will soon wish you hadnt valid point, so for those that want to cut it maybe customer could be warned of this and told no guarantee given with key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny King Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 I would like to ask all the locksmiths on here, Why do you put locks on normal front doors that we cain't cut keys for. The amount of customers we have coming thru our doors with keys we cain't cut and there is a locksmiths name and number on it. you don't gain anymore customers this way just annoy the one you have Just my thoughts Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 I would like to ask all the locksmiths on here, Why do you put locks on normal front doors that we cain't cut keys for.The amount of customers we have coming thru our doors with keys we cain't cut and there is a locksmiths name and number on it. you don't gain anymore customers this way just annoy the one you have Just my thoughts Danny most locksmiths dont unless its requested. was the restricted section requested by the previous owner of the property? how do you know that the key is for the customers property and not a business they work for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithm Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Or a dodgy painter and decorator who, lets say, would like to gain entry at a more convenient time, like 3-30am to rob you blind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Or a dodgy painter and decorator who, lets say, would like to gain entry at a more convenient time, like 3-30am to rob you blind that wont be the first time its happened. the only way a car after mid 90s can be driven away is by the transponder key. you have to produce log book for number plates in most places, should this be across the board for cloning transponders? garages, valets etc can easily get these cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny King Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Or a dodgy painter and decorator who, lets say, would like to gain entry at a more convenient time, like 3-30am to rob you blind Will need to get past the wife first...I mean the dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Do not repair these shoes, unless you can duplicate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Some of the Arrow,Ruko and Ingersol blanks have "do not duplicate" on but I thought if my supplier will supply me with these and I'm not a registered locksmith then I am ok to cut them! I think I'll be more careful in the future... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny King Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Some of the Arrow,Ruko and Ingersol blanks have "do not duplicate" on but I thought if my supplier will supply me with these and I'm not a registered locksmith then I am ok to cut them! I think I'll be more careful in the future... Why????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 all Best & Arrow IC keys are marked "DND" and if you do you will soon wish you hadnt Dunno , but sounds serious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny King Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Maybe someone on here could tell us the legal point on this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Maybe someone on here could tell us the legal point on this i dont think there is a legal side. as far as im aware if its restricted section during its patent period the blank will not be available. if it is made available by a dodgy manufacturer, then they are illegaly copying the patent, not you. once the patent has finished anyone can produce the key blank available for cutters to use. if you look through the catalogues of locks that are sold with restricted section ie EVVA dps etc, it will normaly give you the end of patent date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark A Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Patents last for 10 years so technically duplicating a key after this should not cause a problem, but as stated in a previous post DND is stamped on keys for various reasons. As a locksmith I have supplied/maintained and seviced master suites for a number of Very sheltered Housing schemes for the local council for over 20 years, so most of these manufacturers master suites are now out of the patent period and most of the schemes are experiencing problems of key control due to "unofficial" copies of their suites being cut by local Keycutters, as all the keys in the suites will pass the communal doors then I dont have to explain any further the security risk this poses to the elderly/vulnerable residents...... Earlier in the thread a question was posed to Locksmiths as to why restricted section locks are fitted (may have been tongue in cheek but I'll offer an answer anyway). Simply to force the clients to have to return to them for further keys to be cut. This practice has been commonplace in shop based locksmiths for many years and generates them a constant source of income. Not something that I do personally as I only fit restricted sections when the client requests them, some fit only restricted and others carry both restricted and open sections and give the client the choice. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toofatbyfar Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 there are some keys which we cant do,for obvious reasons, but when your local locky puts in his own section lock into a nomal front door, so the customer can only go to him to get that key cut it gets abit daft, i know business is business, but when they bugger off after a couple of years and they start to come into your shop, and you have to tell them you cant copy it, they aint happy,, what i say is, you can travel 25 mile to where he is or ring him and get it posted, (which will prob cost a fortune) or, i will fit you a nomal lock , and you will be able to get this key cut at any reputable key cutting place,,,,,, but to fit a euro lock is easy, and i show them how to do it, so in a way its not a gripe its more dollar in my till, lock sold and extra keys, av it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hibsjo(SCO) Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 "All systems of key control rely on the limited availability of registered keys. These are only available from reputable locksmiths and security centres, who undertake to check identification and only supply keys to properly authorised people. If keys become freely available – or if pirate copies are produced and circulated on the black market – then security will be fatally undermined. Until now, security companies were able to prevent this, by using the law of Copyright to take action against manufacturers and distributors of illicit copy keys. However, the 1988 Copyright, Designs and Patents Act removed this protection, with effect from 1 August 1999. Although a new form of protection called Design Right was meant to replace Copyright, the law is worded in such a way that it does not protect keys for locks. In short, after 1 August 1999 there will be no legal way of preventing any company from selling security or master keys to anyone, regardless of authorisation or identification. The one exception to this is patented keys. Patent protection on products was not affected by the change to the law and will remain in full force after August 1999. Unfortunately, only a small proportion of the keys sold before now were eligible for this type of protection. You should check to see if your registered keys are covered by patent or only by copyright:" This extract was taken from the Assa Abloy site, DONT F*CK WITH THESE GUYS! patented key systems are BIG business and are protected heavily by the manufacturers, easie entry users do so at great risk of being put out of business as these guys will flatten you. I fit my own system and it costs more as it is protected by patent so why should i worry about others not being able to copy "MY" keys. Its been touched on before so watchout for the difference in Copyright /Patented. carry on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 So if I read that right Copyright = yes copy Patented = no copy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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