elfman Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 GENT comes in to collect his shoes and asks can i repair doc martin shoes i say yes no problem to which he replys that hes has already had them repaired by a company that are agents for doc martins and are one of the top high street names the upshot being that he has taken them back becouse the sole has come off after being repaired not once but twice and this will be the third attempt , so i said he could either bring them in and i would have a look what the problem is or he culd take them back again and ask them to redo them free of charge or ask for his money back ,what would you gents do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Tell him to send the shoes to the company's head office, making them aware of the problem and getting them put right or refunding the original paid price plus postage. This should make the company aware of the need for investigation into training needs. My guess is that the sole have been stuck on rather than heat sealed with the Doc Martens electric knife and not a lot of folk have those nowadays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobblers Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 only once, yes once in twenty years have i ever had a doc marten back that's come unstuck and i've only ever used conventional glues so i have no need for an electric knife. i'd take the repair and do the job properly for him, why let the customer go elsewhere? if he gets a satisfactory resolution then you may lose him as a customer permanently when instead you can impress him with your skills by doing it right the first time. personally, if they've been stuck using a PU cement then i suspect the sole hasn't been scoured first, some repairers i've worked with never scoured new plastic toppieces or soles and although this may be fine for your master grips etc it's not suitable doing it this way with heavier items, they need a good key. (i always use 5050 and only my opinion btw) rick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
x minit uk Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Exactly as Rick says, why give them another chance. Put the job right for him free of charge and gain a customer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 PU adhesive is for Polyurethane, Doc Martens units are PolyVinylChloride (PVC) that is where the problem lies. They need heat sealing eith with an electric knife or a hand knife heated to fuse the PVC unit with the PVC welt. Yes you can get varying degrees of success with adhesive alone but its not foolproof as this guy has found out. If you try to glue them back for him and the bond fails again then he wont have any confidence in the trade as a whole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfman Posted August 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 after reading the replys here is what i did ,i did offer to redo them for him but he said he would take them back to the shop to which isaid send them back to the head office in manchester explaining your complaint and dissapoinment. hugh you are correct about them being pvc but i also have never used a heat knife i allways found that if the shoes and units were prepared correctly then when using the fossplast 8016 you would not encounter any problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobblers Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 i don't agree hugh, once in twenty years isn't varying degrees of success, it's almost outright success. leather isn't made of and doesn't contain neoprene but we still use neoprene and PU cements on it and other materials so it doesn't necessarily hold water that you should use the exact same adhesive as the material, again, preparation is the key in my eyes. rick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithm Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 Ok, I'll get the popcorn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 I'll get a betting slip..... Ding, Ding..... I always glue them on as well, Used to do a lot of them, when the shoes/boots where easier to get in the UK, but at that time was investing money on other expansion tooling. Nowdays I don't do many at all, so the investment in an electric knife wouldn't be worth making. I would have glued them on or replaced them, 9 times out of 10 the onces I've seen coming off are because to big a unit has been fitted making the side walls thin & flexible. If you fit the right size, prepare them correctly etc, there's little reason for them to come off. Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 First of all I doubt very much if you would be able to purchase the electric Knife nowadays but a heated knife (an old one over a gas jet would suffice) can do the job just as good, it just takes longer. Anyone trying this must be aware of Health & Safety as PVC fumes can be lethal. Secondly, just because you aint had any comebacks with adhesive, dont mean that you have a success rating. Your customers could go elswhere to have them fixed just like Elfmans customer. They could also get dissalusioned at the repair and bin the shoes if they are well worn, so no customers coming back does not provide an indication of correct repair methods. Many adhesives will stick a multitude of components but the best adhesive for the job is where the adhesive will fuse with the 2 components and in this case if the PVC is clean it will fuse, it does not need scouring but I always did to be on the safe side. Though later on if life i discovered that this could be detrimental to the bond as less surface contact is provided. Let me give you an example. In the Building Industry rigid PVC is used on Guttering systems and drain pipes, there are 2 methods of fixing for these products, a, an internal rubber or silicon gasket enabling a push fit. b, Solvent applied on one surface or more and push together. The solvent fuses both surfaces together and is impossible to seperrate when the solvent has dried. Building Industry operatives do not scour the 2 surfaces before using solvent...cleaning is sufficiant. Keith... I've run outta Popcorn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobblers Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 Secondly, just because you aint had any comebacks with adhesive, dont mean that you have a success rating. Your customers could go elswhere to have them fixed just like Elfmans customer. They could also get dissalusioned at the repair and bin the shoes if they are well worn, so no customers coming back does not provide an indication of correct repair methods. correct but you could apply that reasoning to every repair i do that involves adhesive 'bout time we had another mass debate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithm Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 Now I'm gettin worried Hugh, you mention Grandkids and Mass Debate all in one day All that 'Glitters' is NOT gold Hugh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 correct but you could apply that reasoning to every repair i do that involves adhesive 'bout time we had another mass debate Well yes I am applying that reasoning to everything you do where there is a risk of adheshive failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 Now I'm gettin worried Hugh, you mention Grandkids and Mass Debate all in one day All that 'Glitters' is NOT gold Hugh That's not at all bad Keith, shows that you pay attention Must refer to them as children of my offsprings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobblers Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 you miss my point old bean in my eyes there is barely any risk of adhesive failure in this case rick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sarsden_boy Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 I use a hot knife, and it is the only way to garantee that the sole wont come unstuck, unless the welt stitches break, but if they do thats not your fault or problem. ones the sole is fused to the welt it wont come undone unless cut with a knife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 I am totally with Rick on this one, I used to do this repair on a regular basis, and also had a heated knife....But I always stuck them on. And had a 100% record, I don't believe I ever had a pair back as a complaint. I used to cut the sole away so-as to patch the sides of the uppers, as they were succeptibable to splitting. But have done many full unit repairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 Given a choice I would stick the buggers on. Purely on H&S grounds. I can only remember a couple of pairs giving problems, but as i mentioned, you dont know of failure unless the customer brings them back. Now I aint advocating that you all use heated knives, it may not be possible (apart from Sarsden boy who may have unlimited equipment at his disposal) just that in the situation of a complaint then this would be the better way forward. Popcorn anyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfman Posted August 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 having not seen the shoes concerned i have no idea if they are the welted or moulded units either way it makes no difference which ones they are i still maintain that if they were prepared correctly and the correct adhesive was used then they would not have failed ,as i said the customer is taking them back to the origenal repairerto see what they are preared to do .just to addi have also used the doc martin units to produce bespoke orthopeadic doc martin fakes for want of a better word .before you all cite copy right laws , the orthopeadic trade was and i think still is not bound by the laws Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 Its always worth remembering if your not sure if the glue you are intending to use is up to sticking the job in hand, then there is a simple test... just apply the glue to a small area, let it dry (properly) then try to clean it off with a piece of crepe. it it comes off then its no good, if it doesn't then you will be ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 Crepe will not be a good indicactor of the stresses involved during normal of industrial wear on DMs. Though it is a help in most cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironplanet uk900 Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 Crepe will not be a good indicactor of the stresses involved during normal of industrial wear on DMs.Though it is a help in most cases. I'm not sure you understand what I mean Hugh If you can't remove the glue with rigorous rubbing with crepe, then the glue has bonded well enough to the material to withstand the repair...Its always worked for me, and I use the method on a weekly basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted August 22, 2008 Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 BLOODY OBVIOUS! but I've never thought to do it! Another top tip! Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobblers Posted August 22, 2008 Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 Its always worth remembering if your not sure if the glue you are intending to use is up to sticking the job in hand, then there is a simple test... just apply the glue to a small area, let it dry (properly) then try to clean it off with a piece of crepe. it it comes off then its no good, if it doesn't then you will be ok. yeah, but then i'll have just wasted a good piece of new wallpaper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh-Candoit (ENG) Posted August 22, 2008 Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 I understood perfectly Planet, just that there are more stresses involved in actual wear than you can account for with a piece of Crepe, good as the test may be. One other aspect of the potential failure is the attatchment of the unit using a half sole cement press, to get an even pressure over the whole area a long sole press in needed as used in manufacturing. Pressing the front half, then changing lasts and adjusting the foot beds (dont tell everyone that you dont change the Bed ) creates 3 more problems, first is a distorted shoe, second can be a broken wooden shank, thirdly you cant be sure that the adheive is at the correct temperature or curing time as it was when you 1st started. Another point is that a press will only give adequate pressure over the area of the selected last and there aint many lasts of the Doc Marten shape that are used in differring sizes. A Universal Last can be a hit or miss affair in particular areas of compression. (Keith, you are not supplying enough Corn ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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