re-crafting issue

[Ray T.]

Hi guys

We talked on this before in another topic but it wandered off so thats why I started this.We posted about why factory re-crafts are suppose to be so great but heres a story out of my shop this week.A guy comes in to my shop and ask me f I can redo his Allen Edmonds that he had re-crafted at the factory .I said sure being the hungry little fat guy I am and asked him why he came back to a repair shop and not the factory.He told me they just did not feel good since he got them back as there were tight.The reason they are tight is because they re-lasted them and overfilled the cavity all in the name of looking new.This was the point I was trying to make last time, that when a guy brings his shoes back for resoling he wants the uppers to look like they came out of the box but the inside to feel like he's had them all his life.Been quiet on repair post so I thought this might perk things upo a spell.

Ray Torcaso

[Hugh-Candoit (ENG)]

Here's my view being an ex factory re-crafter.

 

1st of all they would not have overfilled the cavity, they would have filled it to original specification. When the shoes had become worn ie; filling compressed, sole worn out, there would be more room inside the shoe for the foot to expand into. Re-manufacture would reinstate to original whereas a shop pepairer would retain the shape that they were brought into the shop in. It is all down to customer preference, if they want he shoes to look like new as I would then a re-manufacture is the way to go. If on the other hand they want them for comfort then Shop repairing is the way. No matter how good a job you make of the repair they will not be as good as the top quality coming out of the factory.

Yes there are repairers working in Shoe Factories that may or may not be as proficiant as you in doing the whole job (generalisation here) but collectivly they can do and do do in gemeral a better job, though the comfort factor may be missing.

 

2 shoes standing side by side, one being repaired in a shop the other on the manucturers premises, you will see the obvious difference, one looks repaired the other looks more like a new shoe.

There are also manufacturers that farm their repairs out and I am not including those repairers in this equation. as they are limited by the equipment in house, ie; they will be using the same machinery as you or I used to. (generally).

[ironplanet uk900]

2 shoes standing side by side, one being repaired in a shop the other on the manucturers premises, you will see the obvious difference, one looks repaired the other looks more like a new shoe.

 

You have obviously never expirienced good repairs, but we've said it all before. But have to tell you that statement is Garbage.

[x minit uk]

Thats what I like about you, Planet, you always sit firmly on the fence

[Hugh-Candoit (ENG)]

Thats what I like about you, Planet, you always sit firmly on the fence

 

 

Problem is that the Fence Post is wedged so firmly up his backside that the crap comes out of the wrong end.

I would not mind betting that Planetuk900 in a previous life was a Sniper at the great battle of Hastings circa 1852. They would not trust him with a Grape Shot so they gave him a Blunderbuss so that he could hit everyone who dared to encroach upon his territory hidden deep beneath the bowls of the earth. While awaiting new persons to take a pot shot at he is rumoured to Engrage the names of those in target sight upon each little piece of lead shot, a feat of immense intense skills. He was often heard muttering well into the night on many occasions as he the small round musket shot dropped to the floor, "Cant find my Balls Who's seen my Balls I've lost them"

[ironplanet uk900]

not

[Hugh-Candoit (ENG)]

How come you aint disected it into two hundred and fifty six seperate quotes?

[ironplanet uk900]

Cus its already off topic

[Hugh-Candoit (ENG)]

Nah, it's already following the pattern of the last thread on the subject.

[ironplanet uk900]

Shall we have a row now, save the build up

[Ray T.]

Hi guys

Getting back on track I want to re stress something here.Hugh ,when I say they overfill the cavity I mean by putting in the original amount of cork it lifts the insole up too much thus making the shoe feel tighter.They do not replace the insole on this brand so thats why I call it overfilling.If the guy wanted his imprint out of the insole you can wet it with stretch solution an let it dry on the press.Why the hell would you want the comfort taken out of a shoe is beyond me .You say putting a shoe from a factory next to the shoe from a repair shop that the factory shoe would look the best.In a nutshell ,bull crap!The difference is that you can't get as good of quality from the factory as you can from a quality repair shop .Not only does the repair shop offer a better grade leather most of the time they also can do a better feeling job as long as you truly are a good craftsman.The miracle factory doesn't fix cracks or do much with tears either so again I say big deal.You make it sound like all your repair guys in the U K are very bad craftsman.The factory however does have access to the exact leather for patching be we get close too. P.S. I am just trying to liven up the forum lately as its be dull on the repair end

Ray Torcaso

[Hugh-Candoit (ENG)]

The quality of the repairer in the UK aint a question, just that the quality manufacturers standards are way way beyond your capability unless you have manufacturing equipment.

As for replacing the Insoles, a repair in the UK by the top companies would involve replacing the insole, they would not put an amount of filler into a shoe of the volume used for manufacture unless the insole was replaced.

Obviously you have crap manufacturers in the States.

 

By the way, have you been taking lessons from Planetuk900 some of your emotive comments are a direct copy from his.

[keithm]

[Ray T.]

Hugh

This is for you as you misunderstood me.I did not nor mean to in any way to offend you personally. Just trying to get the sight going again in a meaningful debate thats all!The manufacturer in question was Allen Edmonds and there shoes are great by the way.They don't replace the insoles and I can honestly say Ive never heard of any company doing that until I came to this site and read it.What special equipment is needed that a good repairer can't do by hand?The very best shoes in the world are made by hand for GODS SAKE! By the way,I can take any welted shoe apart to components and put them back together so the machinery theory doesn't cut it with me .You also misunderstood about the filler but I can figure out any clearer on how to word it so I will pass for now.Hugh it sounds like you were a factory guy so I understand thats why you side with them but sometimes you can improve on the wheel P.S. I didn't know planet had the word bullcrap copywrited!

Ray Torcaso

[keithm]

Having a correct last for the size might be a help

[Hugh-Candoit (ENG)]

Hugh

This is for you as you misunderstood me.I did not nor mean to in any way to offend you personally.

You wont offend me Ray

Just trying to get the sight going again in a meaningful debate thats all!The manufacturer in question was Allen Edmonds and there shoes are great by the way.They don't replace the insoles and I can honestly say Ive never heard of any company doing that.

Thaty's why the manufacturers in the States are crap

until I came to this site and read it.What special equipment is needed that a good repairer can't do by hand?

Well lets start by mentioning the lasting machine where an even tension is put on the upper in all the right places.

Then lets mention the Trimmers, Keith will probably correct me but without getting my technical books out I think that they revolve at speeds 3 times faster than repairers machines. The difference is in the smoothness of the finish, the more cutting blades and the faster they go the smoother the finish, same theory with Lawn mowers.The very best shoes in the world are made by hand ..

for GODS SAKE!

By the way,I can take any welted shoe apart to components and put them back together.

That's why youre called a shoe repairer Ray. so the machinery theory doesn't cut it with me .You also misunderstood about the filler .

No Ray I understoodbut I can figure out any clearer on how to word it so I will pass for now.Hugh it sounds like you were a factory guy so I understand thats why you side with them .

No wrong again Ray, I have the experience of Working with Manufacturers, working as a Repairer, Working as an Independant, working with Multiples, working with manufacturers as an Independant, working with manufacturers as part of a multiple, working with Shoe Manufacturing & Repairing colledges, and as I have said many times before to others who get the wrong impression, I do not take the side of anyone other myself, but I bet it will crop up again when someone cant get their own way.but sometimes you can improve on the wheel P.S. I didn't know planet had the word bullcrap copywrited!

Copyrighted!!!!! He invented the words

 

Oh and by the way I almost forgot, Keithm's comment about the lasts is very relevant

[elfman]

sorry ray i have to agree with hugh and kieth on this one if you are using the correct last for the said shoe there is no way yoy can overfill it and if yoy had acess to a steam machine similer to the one we purchased from standerds then restoring them to factory condition would not be a problem at all and before you ask iwas arepairer before going into bespoke shoe making in the orthopeadic trade and like hugh know the difference in the machines that are used

[Hugh-Candoit (ENG)]

Jesus, thank you elfman I've been hoping that there are folk out in the Shoe wilderness that would back me up, been waiting 2 years and boy is it rewarding. Very many thanks.

 

Lasting machines, sized lasts, wrinkle chasers, steamers, super fast trimmers, Regal Edge Setters BU no 10 stitchers, Ultra fine upper stitchers,Welting machines, Bottom Scourers, Polishing and friction mops, beat a Hammer & knife and a 700 finisher any day of the week. As long as you can use them of course , the problem is so many of the operators are now redundant due to cheap subsidised imports.

Not only do we lose the skills we lose the factories, the workforce, the maintenance staff, the machinery manufacturers, the wholesalers, the Tanneries, the Knife/Form makers. But, the only time Joe Public complains is when their own jobs come under fire. In the meantime they are happy to purchase Cheamey welted footwear at £60 when 2 years ago they would have cost £150.

 

You know the true cost of repairing these shoes and there is no way they can be made in this country for £60. If they were made in the EU community I would not have a problem but China and the far East do not subsidise Europe, neither do they toe the line on conservation, a case of sod you lot we are out to raise out Gross Domestic Product at whatever cost.

 

Oh and by the way, we will send all our dead legs to you via defunct Viking ships so that you can give them your excellent benifits.

Try to sabotage our plans for globalisation and we will poison your Crispy Won Tons.

[Ray T.]

OK

Guys ,I will try it again as I can be a hard head until I see proof.So far you haven't given me any to change my mind.I have a wrinkle chaser and I do have a fair amount of last but as for other machines its still needed and heres why.I America the factories don't change the FRIGGEN insole so thats why we don't need the other stuff.The trimmers we use and the heating irons we use are as good as anything the factories have period.I can get my edges as smooth as glass so the revolving at the speed of light doesn't cut it either we me.Ive never been a paper boy ,bagger,ditch digger or anything else for that matter but I do know how to restore shoes period.By the way,you can save yourself thousands with some lasting pliers.That the benefit of being able to make shoes by hand in the first place.Now the reason with the cork issue was because the factory here doesn't change the insole so on a heavy impressioned insole if they put the normal amount in it would lift his insole up thus causing it to feel tight.Hugh if you could of just stayed with one of those 2,000 jobs you had maybe you could have been good too

now that I couldn't resist so forgive my sense of humor!

Ray Torcaso

[Ray T.]

HI

On a quick note ,at home I have a flatbed with roller foot as well as a post machine as well as a double needle post machine and a binding machine so I think I can stitch as nice as the factory if need be.

Ray Torcaso

[ironplanet uk900]

sorry ray i have to agree with hugh and kieth on this one if you are using the correct last for the said shoe there is no way yoy can overfill it

 

Sorry Elfman but your wrong there, just because you have the original last doesn't mean you can't overfill the cavity. It can be overfilled just as easily as if you didn't have the original last. It comes down to the skill of the repairer.

 

Ray is a boot maker, and reading his input in these shoe topics and chatting to him, you can only assume he knows his trade and is very skilled.

 

So I'm sorry Keith, Elfman & hugh, although a couple of you make valid points (not Keith LOL) I agree with Ray on a skilled & professional point of view.

 

I would rather take my shoes to a professional repairer anyday, rather than send them back to the manufacturer, and by this I do mean a professional repairer.

[Hugh-Candoit (ENG)]

I dont think that you would find many Basic Shoe Repairers in the UK with flat bed and post machines Ray!!

These machines are mainly used in the repair trade by those who also do Surgical work as a high proportion of their work.

I will agree that if one has these machines then the finished job is far more pleasing on the eye.

Having used both machines I also would like to point out that thay are useless in doing upper stitching at the front of the shoe unless the upper is able to be placed under a wheel on a flat bed or post.... very seldom do we get this opportunity. The 29K singer or similiar machine has to do all things to all Men (& Women of course).Most cant afford the luxury in cost or space to have 3 machines or more to be able to cope with all situations.

 

They also need considerable skill in being able to operate to a professional standard.

I particularly like the Post machine that cuts off the excess material as it stitches but it took some time to master it.