Jump to content
Shoe Repairer Forum

leather ½ sole graft - tutorial


Recommended Posts

tut tut hughby, a pot rivet :!: great for fastening two wobbly legs together :D

 

i think we may be getting sidetracked by definition here where the rivet is concerned, i just did a search on a thesaurus and used in the right context then you can say to nail something is to (fasten) rivet it in place. your eyes can be riveted to something, doesn't mean they've been popped outta their sockets and compressed at both ends :lol:

sorry :oops:

 

Roget's New Millenniumâ„¢ Thesaurus - Cite This Source - Share This

Main Entry: fasten

Part of Speech: verb

Definition: join

Synonyms: adhere, affix, anchor, attach, band, bar, batten, belt, bind, bolt, bond, brace, button, catch, cement, chain, cleave, close, cohere, connect, couple, embed, establish, fix, freeze to*, girth, glue, grip, hitch, hitch on, hold, hook, hook up, implant, infix, jam, knot, lace, leash, link, lock, lodge, make firm, moor, mortise, nail, rivet, rope, screw, seal, secure, set, settle, solder, stay put, stick, strengthen, string, tack on, tag, tie, tighten, truss, unite, wedge, weld

Antonyms: detach, disconnect, loosen, release, unfasten

Source: Roget's New Millenniumâ„¢ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 77
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

A Rivet is compressed at both ends to attach two pieces of material... Period

Wrong, it does not have to be joining any material and can be used for an infinate number of sections :lol:

A nail has a head on one end and is used to drive into materials to attach, but is not compressed on the other end. Period.

Wrong, there are Headless Nails and also Pointless Nails :lol:

 

It doesn't matter whether they are brass, copper, metal etc. they are what they are. and one is used in a different way to the other.

Very True :wink:

The reason why this has been drawn to our attention is because Hugh reckons there is no need for the Rivets in a waistline to go through the insole and flatten the end on the last: That is wrong.

Wrong, I never said that they dont need to got through to the Insole, just that they dont have to turn and form a "Barb" A brass one will not do this

:lol: If the Rivets don't flatten on the last they will ride back out within a few wears, without a shaddow of a doubt. If anyone disagrees with that then I would have to question thier technical ability.

Not in question that point, it's only the "Barb that is in question :lol:

I am well aware what a "Barb" is Hughby, I used the word as a simily, To get my point over :wink:

Had you have used the word clinched then there would not have been an issue 8)

A barb is meant to prevent the "Hook" from coming out once it has penetrated whatever it has pierced, Similar to a rivet flattened at the end when hitting your last. :wink: :wink:

That is indeed correct, but a barb on an Iron rivet is a totally different animal than a compression on a Brass rivet and as such cannot be talked about in the same light :wink:

 

If your going to rivet your waists then at least be aware of the proper way to do it, and how the rivet works.

:shock: :lol: :shock: :lol: :smt120

Hope this comes over ok as I cant do multiple quotes, been told how but to old to remember those things. :wink

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A Rivet is compressed at both ends to attach two pieces of material... Period

Wrong, it does not have to be joining any material and can be used for an infinate number of sections :lol:

A nail has a head on one end and is used to drive into materials to attach, but is not compressed on the other end. Period.

Wrong, there are Headless Nails and also Pointless Nails :lol:

 

It doesn't matter whether they are brass, copper, metal etc. they are what they are. and one is used in a different way to the other.

Very True :wink:

The reason why this has been drawn to our attention is because Hugh reckons there is no need for the Rivets in a waistline to go through the insole and flatten the end on the last: That is wrong.

Wrong, I never said that they dont need to got through to the Insole, just that they dont have to turn and form a "Barb" A brass one will not do this

:lol: If the Rivets don't flatten on the last they will ride back out within a few wears, without a shaddow of a doubt. If anyone disagrees with that then I would have to question thier technical ability.

Not in question that point, it's only the "Barb that is in question :lol:

I am well aware what a "Barb" is Hughby, I used the word as a simily, To get my point over :wink:

Had you have used the word clinched then there would not have been an issue 8)

A barb is meant to prevent the "Hook" from coming out once it has penetrated whatever it has pierced, Similar to a rivet flattened at the end when hitting your last. :wink: :wink:

That is indeed correct, but a barb on an Iron rivet is a totally different animal than a compression on a Brass rivet and as such cannot be talked about in the same light :wink:

 

If your going to rivet your waists then at least be aware of the proper way to do it, and how the rivet works.

:shock: :lol: :shock: :lol: :smt120

Hope this comes over ok as I cant do multiple quotes, been told how but to old to remember those things. :wink

 

To be fair Hugh your clutching at straws here, as anyone with any idea can see.

I can't be bothered to unmuddle that last post into quotes, as its pointless.

The difference between a nail and a rivet is clear. :roll: :roll: I thought you of all people would have known that :smt009

 

I don't think there is anything else I can say without going round in circles.

I don't think you even believe yourself, Just sticking up for your stubborn

pride. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

The use of Brass rivets does not cause the damage that Iron ones do as they (brass)are much softer.

 

This is not the reason why brass rivets are used, its not because they are soft, it is because they do not rust, which damages the leather, effectivley rotting inside the hole that the rivet has made.

 

These do not turn over and form a barb like square shanked IVI rivets, but you have to use the correct length for them to be effective.

 

 

You should be using square shanked rivets/tingles if your going to rivet your waists.

any other, such as brass nails are totally uneffective, as they do not turn over when hitting the last.

There is no point in using any other form of fixing as your nailing into a cavity usually filled with cork. they will come out as soon as the shoe starts flexing. I don't see an argument.

 

The rivets however work different: Try this.............

 

 

 

157_DSCF2435_1.jpg

 

Knock a square shanked rivet into a good piece of leather, when you feel it hit the last, Tap the rivet a couple of times lightly.

 

157_DSCF2436_1.jpg

 

So the underside looks like this, flush with the surface, but with the end compressed.

 

157_DSCF2437_1.jpg

 

Now knock an identical rivet in the same depth, only put another piece of leather underneath, so you don't compress the end.

 

157_DSCF2438_1.jpg

 

Now get a pair of pliers and pull out the rivet that hasn't been compressed...... easy init, you could almost pull it out with your fingers. Not much use on a repair thats supposed to last 12 months

 

Now pull out the one thats been compressed.............Much more difficult init.............and is going to stay put for the duration of the repairs natural wear time.

 

Compressed at both ends = Rivet...........Get it :twisted: :roll: :lol:

 

For the record...I do not condone riveting waists. But this is the theory behind it.

 

Arise Sir Planet 8)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But..... ](*,) Square shanked rivets are Iron and will rust....

 

The excercise with the rivets on the sample works gust as well with Brass. Get the correct size 1/16 longer than the thickness of the leather test piece and hammer it home, it will compress the end and on a waist job will hols adequately.

Over 1 million pairs of shoes a year were repaired this way when I first started to train young lads like yourselves, did not have the percentage of problems that you have now with cemented waists.

Probably due to the fact that everyone who knew the score used brass and knew about the positioning of the waist, the correct length of the rivet to be used and the compression.

To everyone who uses a full row of Iron rivets on a waist I have only this comment.

 

39_800pxCasing_1.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The excercise with the rivets on the sample works just as well with Brass. Get the correct size 1/16 longer than the thickness of the leather test piece and hammer it home, it will compress the end and on a waist job will hols adequately.

 

 

The use of Brass rivets does not cause the damage that Iron ones do as they (brass)are much softer. These do not turn over and form a barb like square shanked IVI rivets, but you have to use the correct length for them to be effective.

 

 

Make ya mind up :roll: :roll: :lol:

 

Over 1 million pairs of shoes a year were repaired this way when I first started to train young lads like yourselves,

 

No wonder the trade was full of clumpers. :) :)

 

did not have the percentage of problems that you have now with cemented waists.

 

Thats a tad unfair :x I don't believe there are anymore problems today. Infact I think we're much more acumplished repairers today. Mainly because we're neater.

 

Probably due to the fact that everyone who knew the score used brass and knew about the positioning of the waist, the correct length of the rivet to be used and the compression..

 

The positioning of the waist isn't super critical, what is the important is the quality of the graft. Then you don't need amatuer looking rivets. What happened to following the manufacturers lead 8)

 

To everyone who uses a full row of Iron rivets on a waist I have only this comment.

39_800pxCasing_1.jpg

 

Is that a brass bullet heading for your head hughby, at least it won't rust your brain

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let us get 1 thing straight, A Barb is not the same as a compression end.

 

The 2 highlighted in red are 2 different outcomes on 2 different Rivets.

Jesus, I think I can hear "Kermit" Rivet Rivet Rivet :lol:

 

PlanetUK900 wrote

The positioning of the waist isn't super critical, what is the important is the quality of the graft. Then you don't need amatuer looking rivets. What happened to following the manufacturers lead

 

Manufacturers!!!!! since when have the manufacturers been turning out half soles!!!

And, And, And, the position is just as important if not more, than the graft, to high up and it will not stay down no matter what method is used, as was proven in your photo of the shoe brought in to the shop for fixing.

to prove a point, you dont need a graft on a clump half sole, although it does look better with one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I put a graft acroos the ball of the foot it wouldn't come adrift.........without Rivets. And I'm serious.

 

So it's you who has been doing all these bloody bad repairs with short arsoles(half soles). If you've done them many that you can guarantee they wont come apart, what have you done with all the 2" of leather that you cut off the waists :wink:

 

I've just got a new job spec for you "Third Soles" any shorter and they'll be a bloody Toe Piece. (Ah that's what you're doing with the bits cut off the waists, Toe Pieces but called Quarter Soles :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Hey.... have you seen my new girlfreind Rosie the Riveter:lol: :lol:

 

 

39_463pxRosie_the_Riveter_2.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Hi

I am new and don't want to offend anyone here but would just like to offer my views on those pictures.Overall it was a nice looking job but I feel that shank was way too low and not at the proper angle.I also feel if you brush one coat in a work the fibers in with the glue that its better than 2 coats.The more coats of glue the farther away the pieces will be leaving a open looking gap to the naked eye.As for nailing I don't care what side of the ocean you are on as its a no no in anyones book.The only nails in the shank and it would be along the sides only would be a real western boot as thats how they are made in the first place.The last is is the problems some of you seem to have at the shank popping open.From what I have seen from UK shop pictures is that you cut the joint in too deep leaving a sort of butt joint.Also no matter what anyones ever told you before is that at some point we all have had shanks pop open for some factors that we didn't foresee such as weight ,flatfeet or just abnormal gait or even fleshy leather.I truly hope I didn't offend anyone here but just wanted to offer my 2 cents worth.

Ray Torcaso

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that this The strength of original sole has been reduced by 60% at the joint. I prefer to have a joint (no not one of those joints) of no more than 1 mm recess into the original sole and thinning the new sole waist area to match this 1mm recess. My own method of course, I'm not saying that mine is the correct way as I am now of the opinion that half soles on a Goodyear Welted British type shoe should not be done. (personal view only).

157_DSCF2427_1.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

I've just revisited this topic :)

 

First off, we've never riveted/nailed/pinned a waist since this topic was created and we've NEVER had a repair come back that's failed at the waist joint. :D

 

Also, I was taught to do butt joints at the waist, not any more though. I now skive the new sole edge to paper thin (actually thinner) and mirror the skive on the shoe as I've found there can be NO GAP whatsoever where the join is plus the extremely thin skive flexes more. I also like to leave a half moon on the original sole to improve the bond.

 

On fleshy leather I always use a thin coat of primer to help the glue adhere better and it works fine for me although really the ideal method in my own opinion would be to dilute the first coat of glue 50% with thinners as this will allow the glue to penetrate deeper due to it being more watery. (This is how top class cabinet makers apply the first one or two coats of varnish and it's a 100% tried and tested method that will probably never change due to the fact that it works.)

 

I don't ink or half moon the waists anymore as I could never get a consistently smooth or even looking finish with the ink. What I do instead is to clean up what's left of the original sole and stain that too, adding more coats of sole stain to the new sole to match the colour if necessary.

 

I've nicked another carpenter's trick to improve my sole staining. I apply one coat with a soft sponge and rub it in really well then I use the same sponge reloaded with stain and then dab the sole all over really gently, leave for about a minute and then use a clean sponge to smooth it all out. I've found I use much less stain this way and the appearance is more even, especially if the sole got dirty or had a blemish on it that you didn't notice before attaching.

 

I don't understand why some folk think the graft angle is okay and some don't :? Surely if it works and it's neat then that's the main thing? What would you all consider the correct angle anyway and how far down should the graft actually be? (When I was training no one ever explained about the angle to me so I just copied what I saw)

 

I'm so glad I found this forum, I know you all have your own methods and may or may not disagree on how things should be done but I've managed to improve my own methods a hundrefdold by taking a bit of everyone's advice.

 

Before I go: Why do we offer customers leather soles with one of the key selling factors being breathability of leather when most of the time the cork filler isn't breatheable as it contains adhesive then cover most of the sole with glue which is water and airproof and then seal the sole after finishing with Glo-fake or whatever which is also water and airproof? :?

 

Cheers, Rick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've managed to improve my own methods a hundrefdold by taking a bit of everyone's advice.

Totally agree, for me my biggest improvement from the forum has been on engraving, I've learnt so much from the good people here, I'm in a different place to where I was 4 years ago.

 

Lee

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How did you manage to effect that change Hibs? Did you get many complainers at first?

 

I'd prefer to do full soles as they do look so much better but I'm pretty certain it would be hard going trying to justify the price around here. :(

 

Depending on your answers to the above I might think about trying to head the same way as you.

 

Rick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

its the way i tell em Rick

 

instead of going straight for the half sole sell I only offer the thru sole as the option, like for like on all shoes if its a half sole done previously I give them the option of either but sell them the upgrade it makes sense and I have found that the thru sole takes less time to do.

I have always got a thru sole lying about to show them what it will look like.

carry on!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't understand why some folk think the graft angle is okay and some don't :? Surely if it works and it's neat then that's the main thing? What would you all consider the correct angle anyway and how far down should the graft actually be? (When I was training no one ever explained about the angle to me so I just copied what I saw)

 

Before I go: Why do we offer customers leather soles with one of the key selling factors being breathability of leather when most of the time the cork filler isn't breatheable as it contains adhesive then cover most of the sole with glue which is water and airproof and then seal the sole after finishing with Glo-fake or whatever which is also water and airproof? :?

 

Cheers, Rick.

 

Can nobody answer these? :-k

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...